
Kazimakazi |

Shadow warrior -You blend into your surroundings so well that others have trouble telling you apart from the terrain. While in natural terrain, you’re always concealed from all foes if you choose to be, except for your hunted prey.
~ a point of contention came up regarding this feat. Does your hunted foe suffer from the concealment or not. It says you are always concealed unless you choose to be, except for your hunted prey... Does this mean that you cant be unconcealed versus them or that they are unaffected by the concealment? ~
I've seen people read it both ways and just want to check out some official rulings. It just seems odd to me that I could not have a hunted prey and have concealment versus everyone. Or have a hunted prey and not gain any benefits Versus them.

Blave |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |

The ranger's strength is to single out one foe and kill it. This feat is most likely meant to keep him alive while doing so by giving him concealment against everyone else.
I definitely read it as "you are not concealed against from your hunted prey". Unless you use some other form of concealment than this feat, of course.

Kazimakazi |

The ranger's strength is to single out one foe and kill it. This feat is most likely meant to keep him alive while doing so by giving him concealment against everyone else.
I definitely read it as "you are not concealed against from your hunted prey". Unless you use some other form of concealment than this feat, of course.
And I would agree but the interaction between hunt and this seems odd that you don't get a flat bonus vs your prey. Seeing as if you don't get concealment versus them you can simply free action hunt prey at the start of a turn, unload into him and then simply free action hunt your friend thus giving you concealment to the original target. The Counter to this is that you are never not concealed versus your hunted prey makes more sense as if you are going to be trying to use this concealment offensively it's going to be directed to that target. if i was actively targeting a person i would just try and gain a bonus to all targets anyway why exclude the one target you actually want to take down.

HammerJack |

Hunt Prey isn't a free action, though. Swift Prey at level 19 allows it as a free action only if it’s your first action of your turn, so that still doesn't allow flipping freely like that, leaving aside reasons that having a target hunted off turn may matter (Disrupt Prey, or Outwit's AC bonus or whatever else).
Either way, not having concealment from the hunted prey is the only way that sentence actually reads. The other is tortured and nonsensical. I dont think there's really an ambiguity, here in how it works. Just a question of why.

breithauptclan |

Either way, not having concealment from the hunted prey is the only way that sentence actually reads. The other is tortured and nonsensical. I dont think there's really an ambiguity, here in how it works. Just a question of why.
Yes, that is how I read it too. If the devs wanted it to work the other way - where you could choose to be concealed from your hunted prey too - then there are several ways of writing that sentence that would be clearer and shorter.
Some things that do still work:
You can hide from your hunted prey. It only says that you are not automatically concealed from your prey because of this feat. It doesn't prevent being concealed or hidden from other methods.
You can avoid hunting any prey until you have finished sneaking around. I don't see anything in the rules to allow or prevent stopping a hunt prey on a target and have no target. But it also doesn't say that you can't hunt prey on random birds or other animals that you can see (or even your own allies, but that might be a bit of a stretch).

Kazimakazi |

Hunt Prey isn't a free action, though. Swift Prey at level 19 allows it as a free action only if it’s your first action of your turn, so that still doesn't allow flipping freely like that, leaving aside reasons that having a target hunted off turn may matter (Disrupt Prey, or Outwit's AC bonus or whatever else).
Either way, not having concealment from the hunted prey is the only way that sentence actually reads. The other is tortured and nonsensical. I dont think there's really an ambiguity, here in how it works. Just a question of why.
Fair point, I forgot swift had to be first. also, I'm not looking for the benefits of keeping hunt up for the things that come with it, as for the purposes it's not the source of contention ( the benefits of hunt greatly outweigh concealment tbh), im purely here to discuss shadow warriors' weird wording.
why wouldn't it read ~While in natural terrain, you’re always concealed from all foes except for your hunted prey.~ if the intent was to exclude the target from concealment. Why would i even choose to not gain concealment versus foes, they want me to die and i dont wana die.
Why would the hunter not want to make his target have problems dealing with him? His friends have trouble hitting the master ranger in the woods but because he is targeting me somehow I don't suffer from that? that doesn't hold up cause the master ranger can just shoot your friends and still be concealed anyway.

Kazimakazi |

HammerJack wrote:Either way, not having concealment from the hunted prey is the only way that sentence actually reads. The other is tortured and nonsensical. I dont think there's really an ambiguity, here in how it works. Just a question of why.Yes, that is how I read it too. If the devs wanted it to work the other way - where you could choose to be concealed from your hunted prey too - then there are several ways of writing that sentence that would be clearer and shorter.
Some things that do still work:
You can hide from your hunted prey. It only says that you are not automatically concealed from your prey because of this feat. It doesn't prevent being concealed or hidden from other methods.
You can avoid hunting any prey until you have finished sneaking around. I don't see anything in the rules to allow or prevent stopping a hunt prey on a target and have no target. But it also doesn't say that you can't hunt prey on random birds or other animals that you can see (or even your own allies, but that might be a bit of a stretch).
What I'm saying is that you cant choose to be unconcealed from your prey they always suffer from the feats bonus. and the wording is the point of contention cause I've seen people go one of two sides on this matter.
concealment doesn't provide any benefits other than a miss chance. it doesn't make stealth actions easier. You have to take camo to even get this feat and that allows you to stealth while being watched.
tracking and hunting a target is the whole ranger. actively having to choose not to do so seems odd and off. Hunt only wears off if you hunt a new target or your next daily prep session. and doesnt have any particular targeting restrictions other then "a target" really.

HammerJack |

What I'm saying is that you cant choose to be unconcealed from your prey they always suffer from the feats bonus. and the wording is the point of contention cause I've seen people go one of two sides on this matter.
I understand that this is what you were saying. The sentence you quoted from Shadow Hunter doesn't work as a sentence to say that, though.

Kazimakazi |

Quote:What I'm saying is that you cant choose to be unconcealed from your prey they always suffer from the feats bonus. and the wording is the point of contention cause I've seen people go one of two sides on this matter.I understand that this is what you were saying. The sentence you quoted from Shadow Hunter doesn't work as a sentence to say that, though.
Why would your hunted foe be able to see you better than his friends?
Why would you be able to or even choose to drop concealment versus a foe?If it melded into a social encounter, and they became a friend then they no longer suffer from the feat and can then betray you and suddenly you have to go... that guy I gain concealment from him again cause he's a dick again.
if it was the only way to read the feat then I wouldn't be here in the first place. thus I'm here seeking someone of a higher power to table this for me so it stops eating away at my soul like some kinda curse.
I would like to state that I'm not saying your opinion or input on the matter doesn't matter to me. I am happy to have interaction on this subject and in no way am trying to put down anyone's input....just wanted to put that out there before it potentially causes an issue.

Kazimakazi |

Also, NoNat1s (a man on youtube) has a ranger deep dive video in which he also says "why would your prey be able to see you better" and proceeds to call the feat weird. its around the 52min mark of the video if you care to check it out.
Being on youtube doesn't make him more right or wrong on the matter but clearly, the feat itself is weird and can lead to confusion depending on your interpretation.

HammerJack |

While you are obviously free to take or leave my answer, or anyone else's, for your game group. I would suggest not relying on an official answer, rather than on whatever people chime into the thread with their readings.
There probably will not be one.
Not because of your specific question, but because the practice with this system has shifted away from dropping official answers in forum threads, and toward only the big, irregular, FAQ and errata updates being the vehicle for official answers in most cases.

Kazimakazi |

Well, you are obviously free to take or leave my answer, or anyone else's, for your game group. I would suggest not relying on an official answer, rather than on whatever people chime into the thread with their readings. There probably will not be one. Not because of your specific question, but because the practice with this system has shifted away from dropping official answers in forum threads, and toward only the big, irregular, FAQ and errata updates being the vehicle for official answers in most cases.
The Gm and I see eye to eye in this case. To us, it just makes no sense that your prey for some reason just sees you better. but the other members are under the other flag and live by the Blue post. as random people from the internet mean nothing to them....which we find funny.

breithauptclan |

why wouldn't it read ~While in natural terrain, you’re always concealed from all foes except for your hunted prey.~ if the intent was to exclude the target from concealment. Why would i even choose to not gain concealment versus foes, they want me to die and i dont wana die.
The original sentence:
While in natural terrain, you’re always concealed from all foes if you choose to be, except for your hunted prey.
Some other options of wording (and the rules implications changed):
* While in natural terrain, you're always concealed from all foes. (Non-optional. Clearly applies to hunted prey also.)
* While in natural terrain, you're always concealed from all foes if you choose to be. (clearly applies to hunted prey also.)
* While in natural terrain, you're always concealed from all foes except your hunted prey. (Again, non-optional. Clearly does not apply to hunted prey.)
Some synonymous wording options:
* While in natural terrain you can choose to be concealed from all foes except your hunted prey.
* While in natural terrain you are always concealed to foes other than your hunted prey unless you choose to be seen clearly.
In both of these and the original wording the concealment against all foes is definitely optional. And the concealment does not apply to the target of hunt prey.
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As for why you would ever choose to be clearly visible to the other foes ... I don't have a concrete answer at the moment. Probably because you are trying to be an attractive target for enemy ire in order to draw attention away from an ally that is in trouble. Either that or because an enemy has a special ability that is more effective against a concealed target.

Blave |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Take it as a case of tunnel vision. You're obvious to your Prey because you're staring at it with killing intent and it most likely notices that and pays special attention to you. More than any other enemy on the battle field who all see you as a less immediate threat to them because you're hell-bent on killing that other guy over there.

BloodandDust |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It’s a more interesting (cool) feat if the Hunted Prey is the only one for whom the Hunter (ranger) is not concealed. It turns the ranger into something like a “live” Phantasmal Killer…
The ranger becomes a sort of waking nightmare: the target cannot help but see his approaching doom but his allies and friends are indifferent/unaware.
“Guys help, he’s after me, I’m going to die!!”
”Chill out Steve its just the wind in the trees.”
“OMG no, aiiiiieeee” <panicked running>
“Man, he’s really wigged out, go tell the shaman, maybe he stepped on something poisonous.”

Kazimakazi |

Take it as a case of tunnel vision. You're obvious to your Prey because you're staring at it with killing intent and it most likely notices that and pays special attention to you. More than any other enemy on the battle field who all see you as a less immediate threat to them because you're hell-bent on killing that other guy over there.
So they are hunterXhunter characters lol.

Kazimakazi |

Kazimakazi wrote:why wouldn't it read ~While in natural terrain, you’re always concealed from all foes except for your hunted prey.~ if the intent was to exclude the target from concealment. Why would i even choose to not gain concealment versus foes, they want me to die and i dont wana die.The original sentence:
Shadow Hunter wrote:While in natural terrain, you’re always concealed from all foes if you choose to be, except for your hunted prey.Some other options of wording (and the rules implications changed):
* While in natural terrain, you're always concealed from all foes. (Non-optional. Clearly applies to hunted prey also.)
* While in natural terrain, you're always concealed from all foes if you choose to be. (clearly applies to hunted prey also.)
* While in natural terrain, you're always concealed from all foes except your hunted prey. (Again, non-optional. Clearly does not apply to hunted prey.)Some synonymous wording options:
* While in natural terrain you can choose to be concealed from all foes except your hunted prey.
* While in natural terrain you are always concealed to foes other than your hunted prey unless you choose to be seen clearly.In both of these and the original wording the concealment against all foes is definitely optional. And the concealment does not apply to the target of hunt prey.
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As for why you would ever choose to be clearly visible to the other foes ... I don't have a concrete answer at the moment. Probably because you are trying to be an attractive target for enemy ire in order to draw attention away from an ally that is in trouble. Either that or because an enemy has a special ability that is more effective against a concealed target.
* While in natural terrain you can choose to be concealed from all foes except your hunted prey. See this leaves no room for discussion. Short sweet and to the point. Why not say this. and if im actively stalking a target im stealthed and hidden anyway so concealment means nothing.I still just find it weird that your hunted prey target just sees you better but at least the whole phantasmal killer thing does make it alittle easier to digest and i suppose that will be the besti can get

N N 959 |
Why would your hunted foe be able to see you better than his friends?
Because it's a game that is primarily focused on game "balance" not realism or any notion of in-game consistency. These feats and ability are wholly and 100% arbitrary. Paizo is making them up out of thin air. That means they aren't going to follow any logic that doesn't suit the purpose for which they were contrived.
This is a reoccurring and common issue with gamers. Players routinely want to invent some in-game justification for how contrived feats/abilities/spells work. That often requires mental gymnastics/contortionism that are more nonsensical than the underlying ability.
Why would you be able to or even choose to drop concealment versus a foe?
Because you can Hunt Prey out of combat and you may not want to tip everyone off when you are suddenly hard to see. You may also want to attract attention or make yourself available as a target so the GM isn't forced to attack someone who is already near death, or dying.
Perhaps a more nuanced questions is whether you can "choose to be" concealed or revealed at any point during your turn and whether you can do it multiple times during the same turn.

breithauptclan |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

* While in natural terrain you can choose to be concealed from all foes except your hunted prey.
See this leaves no room for discussion. Short sweet and to the point. Why not say this.
My best guess would be because of how the development process happened. Initially the ability applied to all enemies and was written as "While in natural terrain, you're always concealed from all foes if you choose to be." Then the decision was made that this was too powerful because it meant that you were still concealed to an enemy that you were actively engaged in 1v1 combat with in an empty field. So the clause about not applying to the hunted target was added.
But that is just my guess on it.
and if im actively stalking a target im stealthed and hidden anyway so concealment means nothing.
It means that it is a lot easier to sneak up to someone when they have allies.
You only need cover or concealment in order to make hide and sneak checks. So since you automatically have concealment against all of those other enemies, you only need to have cover or some other method of gaining concealment against your hunted prey.