Hey all
I’m sure someone has already answered this but my Googlefu seems to keep coming up with non-Pathfinder answers.
Feeblemind is instantaneous and sets your Intelligence score 1.
It is then done. There is no permanent magic on you that can be suppressed by anti-magic. It has just come in, scrambled your brain and then left you drooling.
If someone comes along and puts a Headband of Vast Intelligence on you, surely this would increase your score whilst the headband remains worn.
Why do people say it wouldn’t? Am I missing something?
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The charisma too is set to 1.
Plus: "The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently."
That is a separated effect, so raising your Intelligence and/or charisma with a headband doesn't remove it.
Then there is the problem of what happens if the character had a headband increasing intelligence or charisma when the spell was cast. If you remove the headband of vast intelligence +2, does the character intelligence decrease to -1?
So, I suppose, most people say that the new score is 1 and can't be modified to avoid complications.
All things considered, there is no RAW reason to justify the general opinion that the condition can't be ameliorated, but allowing that will generate some strange consequence.
Ahhh, now I understand.
That’s a crazy powerful spell! More so than I thought it was.
Thank you for your help!
It sets your intelligence and charisma to 1, but your equipment and any other spell effects like Fox's Cunning will be unaffected. So If you have a +4 headband, that'll be 5. Though you still can't use skills and so on.
Ability damage and drain would be based on that 1 (plus bonuses, as above) so you'll probably fall unconscious at the first point of damage or drain.
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It sets your intelligence and charisma to 1, but your equipment and any other spell effects like Fox's Cunning will be unaffected. So If you have a +4 headband, that'll be 5. Though you still can't use skills and so on.
Ability damage and drain would be based on that 1 (plus bonuses, as above) so you'll probably fall unconscious at the first point of damage or drain.
After 24 hours of donning an enhancement item, the effect becomes permanent, and so part of your stats. It is questionable if the change to a value of 1 affects that or not.
Feeblemind drops your scores to 1 and leaves you in that state until specific magic is used to cancel the effects. If an enchantment bonus affected the score than other things can alter the state. Since the spell is very specific on what can change the state only those things listed in the spell have any effect on it.
Even if an enchantment bonus did raise the score you would still not be able to use any Intelligence or charisma based skills, cast spells, understand a language or communicate coherently. These are in addition to the lowering of the mental stats. Some animals have an INT of 1 but can still use INT or CHA based skills. Animals often use Intimidate which is a CHA based skill.
Feeblemind drops your scores to 1 and leaves you in that state until specific magic is used to cancel the effects. If an enchantment bonus affected the score than other things can alter the state. Since the spell is very specific on what can change the state only those things listed in the spell have any effect on it.
Even if an enchantment bonus did raise the score you would still not be able to use any Intelligence or charisma based skills, cast spells, understand a language or communicate coherently. These are in addition to the lowering of the mental stats. Some animals have an INT of 1 but can still use INT or CHA based skills. Animals often use Intimidate which is a CHA based skill.
^that.
the spell say :"The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind"
it say nothing for fox's cunning...
you will notice it doesn't give a specific number the ability score drop. say minus 10 or so. a fool with 5 int get the same result as a super genius with 20. they all get their brain (and cha) scrambled in a way that i assume no lesser methods can change. i would say even putting on a headband of int won't change his int from 1, same as it won't work on a chair. his brain process doesn't register as something that can be higher then 1.
also notice that while it is an instantaneous spell. unlike say, a fireball, it's effects are said to have very limited ways to cancel so in essence while the casting time is instantaneous the spell's effect duration should be seen as 'permanent until canceled'.
say for example a similar spell called 'Feeble' was made which lowered the current hit point of the target to 1 and said the same for how to cancel it (can only be canceled with X Y Z spells). would you think healing him with a cure light wounds spell would work?
Fireball can turn a living being to a dead one. Which lessers spells and effects like cure x wounds won't fix.
Feeblemind turn creatures to feebleminded creatures which lessers spells and effects can't change.
You are not using heal, wish (limited or not) or a miracle? Then it doesn't cancel the feeblemind effect - Int and cha are set at 1.
After 24 hours of donning an enhancement item, the effect becomes permanent, and so part of your stats.
Those are two different things. A permanent bonus is still a bonus, and the rules explicitly say "These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed." There isn't really a difference between temporary and permanent ability scores.
If an enchantment bonus affected the score than other things can alter the state. Since the spell is very specific on what can change the state only those things listed in the spell have any effect on it.
Objectively wrong. The spell list spells that can cancel the entire effect. Remedying some aspect of the effect and cancelling the entire spell's effect are fundamentally different things. There's a distinction between "cancel the effect" and "lessen the penalty". Power Attack doesn't say the penalty can be lessened (and at below BAB+4 negated) by Weapon Focus, and yet that's what happens. The list quoted is for spells that outright remove everything Feeblemind did.
What comes next, saying "Open/Close doesn't say the effect can be canceled, so the door can't be closed again"?
Feeblemind has a duration of instantaneous, meaning it only does something once. It is not a permanent duration, it can not suppress things applied later on. Spells with instantaneous duration simply don't work that way.
Feeblemind also doesn't say it dispels the magic of a Headband of Vast Intellect, so it can't do that, and thus can't have an effect on what the headband does.
say for example a similar spell called 'Feeble' was made which lowered the current hit point of the target to 1 and said the same for how to cancel it (can only be canceled with X Y Z spells). would you think healing him with a cure light wounds spell would work?
That no such spell actually exists (because it would be healable) works as an argument against you, you know? Meanwhile, no matter how much you increase the feebleminded creature's Int and Cha, they're still unable to talk or cast spells.
Int and cha are set at 1.
No, they "drop to 1". They aren't forever kept at 1.
After 24 hours of donning an enhancement item, the effect becomes permanent, and so part of your stats.Those are two different things. A permanent bonus is still a bonus, and the rules explicitly say "These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed." There isn't really a difference between temporary and permanent ability scores.
If an enchantment bonus affected the score than other things can alter the state. Since the spell is very specific on what can change the state only those things listed in the spell have any effect on it.Objectively wrong. The spell list spells that can cancel the entire effect. Remedying some aspect of the effect and cancelling the entire spell's effect are fundamentally different things. There's a distinction between "cancel the effect" and "lessen the penalty". Power Attack doesn't say the penalty can be lessened (and at below BAB+4 negated) by Weapon Focus, and yet that's what happens. The list quoted is for spells that outright remove everything Feeblemind did.
What comes next, saying "Open/Close doesn't say the effect can be canceled, so the door can't be closed again"?
Feeblemind has a duration of instantaneous, meaning it only does something once. It is not a permanent duration, it can not suppress things applied later on. Spells with instantaneous duration simply don't work that way.
Feeblemind also doesn't say it dispels the magic of a Headband of Vast Intellect, so it can't do that, and thus can't have an effect on what the headband does.say for example a similar spell called 'Feeble' was made which lowered the current hit point of the target to 1 and said the same for how to cancel it (can only be canceled with X Y Z spells). would you think healing him with a cure light wounds spell would...
you miss the point that feeblemind isn't a penalty. it never say you lose X poins of int and cha. it is a state that lower them to one. and as such as long as it persist can not be changed. wording it out as elevate vs cancel seem to try and split up the spells effect between the part that state the score goes down to 1 and the implications of it (can't use int and cha skills etc).
but if you look at the words of the spell :"Target creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores each drop to 1. The affected creature is unable to....The subject remains in this state until..." it is all one state going on. the inability to use said skills and what not is the explanation of what having a feeble mind with score of one int and cha mean. you can't go around saying oh the effects of not being able to do this persist but the effect of having your mental score reduced to 1 (again reduced, not panelized!) does not, and can be changed by means beside the ones explicitly named in the spell.
if it were two different effects that one stay and the other can be changed then the 'heaving int and cha at one' should have included an explanation of what exactly this would effect ((oh wait a moment a sentence after it DEOS explain it . in minute details like how he can still tell foe from friends and such, would you look at that?)
you want to split up these effects you need to prove that only the latter are what get canceled with said spells and the former isn't part of it.
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also as for "It is not a permanent duration, it can not suppress things applied later on. Spells with instantaneous duration simply don't work that way." you kinda missed my point with fireball killing people didn't you (or any other spell breaking a door etc) instantaneous effects that CHANGE the target stay that way until undone. whether it's killing it (need a rez) breaking it (need mending) or feebleminding it (need to cure it).
look at insanity for example. duration is set to instantaneous yet until cured the target remain crazy and doesn't get better without the named spells cast on it.
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of course no such spell as 'feeble' exit, i was giving an example how the rules work in case one did exist...and no. it would not be healable if the effect changed the target in such a way that it's current hp is reduced to one until heal, wish etc aare cast on it. that is why it's calling for them specific spells after all.
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"No, they "drop to 1". They aren't forever kept at 1."
as mentioned above. you can't just arbitrarily split up the spells effect to suit you. spell say the abilities are reduced to one and the target can't do specific things. also say what can cancel this effect. meaning anything else like trying to rise the abilities won't work. it's immediately go back to one -since it wasn't canceled.
Having the score change from 1 to any higher number effectivly cancel the effect of it being reduced to 1. Calling it by an other name like 'elivating' doesn't change what you try to do. And the spell speificly say. The effect can't be canceled so easly.
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Just to repeat it, the inability to cast spells, understand language, communicate, and use cha and int dependant skills isn't dependant on the final ability score in intelligence or charisma. You lose those abilities even if the use of wishes and a headband of cha and int +6 bring your stats to 12 in int and cha.
I’m gonna stick with the analogy of scrambled egg.
Feeblemind is a whisk. It turns up, scrambles the egg (brain) and then leaves.
The egg is still scrambled after the whisk is gone and the only way to unscramble it is to use the spells listed under Feeblemind.
A Headband of Vast Intelligence is (stretching the analogy here) an extra yolk that sits on top of the scramble. It can’t fix the scramble but it is still a bonus that makes things a little better.
Feeblemind *should* be a permanent spell, but to keep you from being able to dispel it, it's listed as instantaneous.
The "drops" effect is meant to be a capping of your stat at 1. It doesn't matter what is going on under the hood with ability damage, reduction, drain, enhancement, etc. the scores are either 1 or 0 (when they would normally be a 0 without the feeblemind anyway).