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I've personally been thinking a lot lately about how restorative practices could fit into forum moderation. Even small things, like, if Steve gets a bunch of his posts deleted for flamebaiting Sally, he has to apologize to Sally before he's allowed to go back to posting normally.
I bet if half the bad actors had to apologize to those they targeted every time they got in trouble with the mods, they'd start posting an awful lot slower. :)
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The problem would become 'what is a Bad actor', and why does 'x' get Bad Actor status but 'y' does not?
I like the idea behind it, but I'd be afraid that we'd start to see tone-deaf rote recitations of apology before bad actors went right back to it -- or worse. really started to dig deep into the sewer to hide their meanings to anyone except targeted groups.
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I think restorative practices, and social reckoning would be great. And it's failure on the legitimately bad faith is covered, if we just ban/suspend people.
Giving infinite "second chances" doesn't work. If you apologize, then go back to the same behavior, you get the consequence.
'what is a Bad actor', and why does 'x' get Bad Actor status but 'y' does not?
That's a greyer question when people get heated about rules, but the moderation was mostly managing that stuff fine already. The moderation is failing because it's not differentiated to handle bigots debating whether trans people are human enough to determine if they know what's transphobic. Bad actors are bigots is just not a hard sell, and they prove it if they get a caution, but then blithely continue.
That's not even rhetorical, because we seen forced sounding apologies, then going on to repeatedly favorite the same vitriol they were cautioned for just by other posters.
Deleting the entire previous thread is "I don't want to hear this anymore" it doesn't erase the awful s#!+ from that thread, or the stress/dehumanization it caused. It just gives the bigots free pass to do the same today, and tomorrow.
Deleting Posts Doesn't Make the forums safer, so I don't see it as effective moderation either. It's status quo preservation, and the status quo on the Paizo boards is not a safe place.
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Deleting Posts Doesn't Count As Moderation
Yes, it does.
That's how moderation works.
You know this.
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Better someone who keeps attention to issues than a bigot.
And just deleting posts and having people who say horrible things not face any repercussions and instead let them continue to harass people, if anything encourage them since they know they can get away with it, is not moderation.
If they ban me over this, so be it.
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Better someone who keeps attention to issues than a bigot.
And just deleting posts and having people who say horrible things not face any repercussions and instead let them continue to harass people, if anything encourage them since they know they can get away with it, is not moderation.
If they ban me over this, so be it.
You don't know if they face repercussions because YOU DON'T WORK THERE so you have absolutely no idea what's been going on behind the scenes.
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No, you don't, because you don't work there.
Repercussions take many forms and can sometimes take a while to implement.
Instead of spamming maybe find a less destructive way to contribute to the betterment of our community.
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Again, they’re still active so they haven’t faced any repercussions yet, to claim otherwise is simply lying.
Repercussions “that take awhile” don’t do a whole lot of good.
I really wouldn’t consider myself a spammer, whereas there’s nothing forcing you to come into these threads and post repeatedly.
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I've gotten warnings that they would permanently ban me for being a jerk or cut off subs if I didn't reign it in that I've never told anyone about.
So yes, repercussions take many forms and often happen where you can't see them.
As long as the poster has learned their lesson and isn't posting hateful or derogatory comments then so what if they're still posting.
If they are still posting hateful or derogatory comments then flag it so they can eventually ban them.
You've been here long enough that you know this and by constantly picking fights with Paizo over how they moderate you're just propagating the anger.
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A warning is not a repercussion.
“As long as the poster has learned their lesson and isn't posting hateful or derogatory comments then so what if they're still posting.
If they are still posting hateful or derogatory comments then flag it so they can eventually ban them.”
They’re not and we have been, going on for months, let alone years.
“You've been here long enough that you know this”
I do know, they hardly ever ban people. That’s why I’m bringing it up, it’s gotten worse, they aren’t even giving suspensions, the people being hateful just keep being hateful after their posts are deleted with no change.
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Also, it's almost Thanksgiving so the customer service team is probably feverishly getting ready for whatever black Friday or holiday sale they probably don't have enough time right now to both delete posts and leave Shakespearean prose explaining and excruciating details on why the posts were deleted. At least they were deleted.
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A warning is not a repercussion.
“As long as the poster has learned their lesson and isn't posting hateful or derogatory comments then so what if they're still posting.
If they are still posting hateful or derogatory comments then flag it so they can eventually ban them.”
They’re not and we have been, going on for months, let alone years.
“You've been here long enough that you know this”
I do know, they hardly ever ban people. That’s why I’m bringing it up, it’s gotten worse, they aren’t even giving suspensions, the people being hateful just keep being hateful after their posts are deleted with no change.
They are trying to sell a product so they have to be more delicate about how they handle their customers so of course they're going to be extremely selective of permanent bans) and the best way to show you that you don't approve of their business is to not give them your money (which your subscriber tags say you give them in abundance (as do I, they're pretty sweet!).
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… Thanksgiving is in 2 weeks.
When I worked at Toys R Us we started preparing for black Friday a month in advance, and that's just the store!
And honestly it doesn't make a difference, you're still being inconsiderate towards the customer service team who've had enough crap to deal with in the last month or two.
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Captain,
Would you accept your arguments above if racists were being repeatedly racist on the boards, their posts deleted but no other visible sanction applied?
In those circumstances, Rysky’s stance would hardly be unusual in its vehment rejection of light touch moderation. So I’m not sure why you’re seeing it so negatively given the analogous nature of the complaint.
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Captain,
Would you accept your arguments above if racists were being repeatedly racist on the boards, their posts deleted but no other visible sanction applied?
In those circumstances, Rysky’s stance would hardly be unusual in its vehment rejection of light touch moderation. So I’m not sure why you’re seeing it so negatively given the analogous nature of the complaint.
They have a racist flag for a reason, I've never been afraid to use it.
And taking companies to task for their practices is exactly the type of thing Twitter is great for, and you'll get a lot more visibility.
Better that then spamming threads for a webstore and taxing an already depleted and exhausted workforce with low morale.
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Hope you don't get suspended for recreating this thread Rysky. You're playing with fire a little here, not that I ever expect anything less from you.
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“We can’t ban bigots we want their potential money” is not the good defense you think it is.
As for canceling my subs I can do that in fact, it was an option weighed when the most recent incidents involving management came out but was postponed with the acceptance of the Union, so hopefully good can come from that.
I don’t really care about visibility, the issues concern the Paido forums, so I post on the Paizo forums. You claim I’m inconsiderate, but the bigots and trolls are not?
At this point I’m not the one spamming, it’s you.
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“We can’t ban bigots we want their potential money” is not the good defense you think it is.
As for canceling my subs I can do that in fact, it was an option weighed when the most recent incidents involving management came out but was postponed with the acceptance of the Union, so hopefully good can come from that.
I don’t really care about visibility, the issues concern the Paido forums, so I post on the Paizo forums. You claim I’m inconsiderate, but the bigots and trolls are not?
At this point I’m not the one spamming, it’s you.
I didn't say that. But you know that otherwise you would have quoted me directly.
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“They are trying to sell a product so they have to be more delicate about how they handle their customers so of course they're going to be extremely selective of permanent bans”
Your exact words.
That is what I said, yes. Which is true of any business.
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As always, no community should tolerate any amount of bigotry. At this point, I'd imagine the problem-causers contribute a lot less to the bottom line of Paizo given how very few of them there are.
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Flagged this post/thread as spam. Because it’s exactly what it is
I'm sorry you seem to believe that a discussion on the nature of moderation on the forums is spam. Perhaps if the original thread comes back, this can be removed, but there is literally no reason to shut it down otherwise.
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It’s up to the initial poster what that poster wants to flag or not and the mods get to decide if it deserves to be removed or not.
Or as posters are we no longer even given an choice on the matter.
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I apologized Rysky for misgendering initially.
She/They/He Is written and copied and pasted exactly from the profile here on the forums. I include some three as I am uncertain which one is the preferred pronoun. Or is that not the case. Maybe not toss out claims of transphobia when I post something that we are in disagreement with.
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You're being intentionally obtuse Jones. If there's a slash, that means any of those are fine, and in the previous statement they said that any of those are fine as long as it's not intentionally assigning them a male pronoun as an attempt to misgender. If that wasn't your original intention you could say so and apologize that it came off that way, instead, you're now being extremely passive aggressive and accusing us all of calling you a transphobe for every action you take.
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Deleting Posts Doesn't Count As Moderationrolls a nat 20 on a will save and decide not to respond.
Congratulations! That was a pretty high DC.
Anybody have a class ability that can grant everyone a second save? I’m worried about the spell duration…
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I do think its valid to tell someone to knock it off and stop it or get banned as part of moderation, but there does exist line where crossing it does warrant insta ban(most of such behavior being EXTREMELY illegal). I think most people can agree that hate speech does warrant that, but I think problem is that different people disagree what counts as hate speech and then they debate about that instead <_<
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I rather assume that the forum software accidentally removed the thread rather than assume it was done on purpose. I rather give the mods the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming I’ll intent on their behalf.