|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Either that or Tonya thinks the moderators need a real challenge. >:)
Thank you to HMM for this thread. I appreciate the suggestions and use of them will make moderation difficult. *supervillain cackles and pets a white Persian cat in her lap*
Who would be her Oddjob?
Scott..we talked about this...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
HMM, this is a great thread. I don't think I have favourited so many posts on one page ever!
I would add some other tools for people to use here based off some things posted above:
Check Your Premises
No, not your house or apartment, but the plural form of premise. Every argument, belief, hypothesis, or explanation has at its base one or more premises. Everyone assumes their premises are true, but as BNW pointed out, some people will disagree as to even the fundamentals.
I'll throw something else in: What's true for one person can be false for someone else. This can come from genetics, taste, upbringing, etc. So many factors go into building a person that it is sometimes amazing we're as similar as we are!
When the arguments are going nowhere and repetition is kicking in, try and find the underlying premise for both arguments. This can be tricky and will require patience, but once you get down there you will often find that inherent incompatibility of premises is the heart of the matter.
Incompatible core belief is not something anyone will win over the internet. It's best to acknowledge the difference and move on. Do it politely and hopefully the other person will do the same. If the opposition keeps baiting, ignore and flag.
Learn Precis
Precis is the ability to strip away all the excess words and get to the heart of the matter. It's probably the single most important skill I was ever taught in school, yet it is given little attention in most education systems.
Using HMM's words above as a way to describe it in action, it allows you to cut through all the noise and find the core signal in any statement. Using it on your own posts, you can make yourself more concise (and calm emotions at the same time!). Using it on others allows you to answer the actual statement rather than any emotion or vitriol.
You may even find that you precis an entire post into nothing, as they used a lot of words to say just that: Nothing. In that case it's best to just ignore it.
Hope people find some of this useful!
:)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What can I say? Sunshine and lollipops are kind of my brand.
Hmm
Myself, I always suspected that you were part of the Lullaby League. :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe it's presumptuous of me, but there's something really charming and endearing about actually linking the song, like The Wizard of Oz is some niche nerdy reference people might not get. ;P
<snip> FULL POST
But humility is important. Self-awareness is important. A cis person commenting on trans issues is like an out-of-towner commenting on town gossip: even if you think you're well-informed, sweetie, you're not from around here, you don't know which points we've already heard many times over, and there's a really good chance you're making an ass of yourself if you aren't careful and respectful.
Thank you for that great analogy.
Take care,
Harry
We sometimes don't know words, and it is painful when we have those words (which were taught to us by a family member) attacked and we don't know why they're being attacked.
This is not something new.
It's not 'woke' culture.
My grandmother taught me some HORRIBLE words in relation to things when I was growing up, and I was at a grocery store with my mom .
I commented on a particular food product using the term my grandmother had used.
One could have heard the pin drop from halfway across the store.
"WHAT did you just say?"
"*redacted*"
I didn't know what was wrong, I was very young and using the term that I THOUGHT was okay.
So I repeated myself.
When I got home -- and that trip home from shopping was downright glacial.
And then my mom explained to me at length why it was bad, why it shouldn't be used, and how to be a better person.
** spoiler omitted **
When people attempt to do the same for things like transphobia or the like, that initial reaction occurs (it seems) but when folks attempt to step to education, the education gets attacked.
How can there be education if it feels like no one wants to learn?
If your grandmother was any relation to mine, I assume the product in question was Brazil Nuts?
It was a legume from South America, yes, Storm Dragon.
It's astounding to me that this was, apparently, common terminology. Unless we secretly are actually related, anyway.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alas, it was, I know the extremely unkind term for those otherwise innocent nuts...not EVER going to use it, but yeah, actually got in a heated argument with my father over my desire for him not to use that terminology.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
To the OP's thread title.
It isn't possible.
1) It's an internet TTRPG forum. The audience is way too varied personality-wise.
2) It's an internet TTRPG forum. Too easy to hide behind your keyboard. I imagine that some fans/developers have had experiences that might be considered "not so stellar" when meeting some folks here in RL at a Convention or similar venue.
You do bring up some great ideas with your toolboxes and in a perfect world it would be viable. I commend the effort to promote via positivity.
Apologies if I seem jaded, IRL I'm a little different.
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
It isn't possible.
We don't need to change all communication at once. If everyone reading this would try to apply those tools to their own communication skill set (and of course use them), we'd still see a bit of an improvement.
I'd count that as a win and better than any kind of lowest common denominator we could probably agree on otherwise.
Contributor
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
It isn't possible.
It may seem that way sometimes! Still, let me disagree with you here. Changing a culture, even an internet culture, happens all the time. All that has to happen is for enough of the core users of this area of the forums to start utilizing some of these tools. The more people who do so, the more change you will see. There are a number areas of these forums where discourse is pleasant and fun.
But here in General Discussion, it's been so rough that there have been multiple threads calling for a change in moderation tactics. That means that there is an appetite for change already in the system.
It's an internet TTRPG forum. The audience is way too varied personality-wise.
I consider that diversity not a problem, but a strength. This means that we all can pull from different skill sets when we collaborate and generate new ideas.
2) It's an internet TTRPG forum. Too easy to hide behind your keyboard. I imagine that some fans/developers have had experiences that might be considered "not so stellar" when meeting some folks here in RL at a Convention or similar venue.
A good number of the posters here are also convention regulars. We meet in person on the convention circuit, and our forum personae follow us around. Ask Wei Ji, TOZ and Big Norse Wolf about how much their forum reputation follows them into real world conventions. Who you are online can really affect how you are perceived once you meet other Paizo regulars in person.
You do bring up some great ideas with your toolboxes and in a perfect world it would be viable. I commend the effort to promote via positivity.
Thank you!
Apologies if I seem jaded, IRL I'm a little different.
No worries about being jaded and burned out. We've all been enduring the pandemic, and some of us have had to deal with riots in our home towns. Top this off with how contentious the past month was with events at Paizo... Wooo! No wonder we've all been stressed to the gills. But that is part of the reason I have compiled the tool boxes. We all deserve a welcoming community on these forums. This includes not just us, but all the overworked community service staff who serve as moderators here. The real world is stressful enough!
But it will get better, one step at a time. We all just need to work at it.
Hugs,
Hmm
| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's easy to assume internet anonymity is the cause of toxicity, but generally, that's a misnomer. Facebook is one of the most toxic websites on the internet, and a lot of hateful people on social media use their real names. Anonymity can make it much safer for people to be themselves. There's a reason why trans people are so prevalent in these sorts of spaces.
I think it's the fleetingness of interactions that tends to encourage toxicity. It's a lot easier to shout "you're an a$@&+&!!" out of a speeding car, but it gets very awkward if you hit a traffic stop two seconds afterward. That's based on a true story, by the way. Except they were yelling something racist at a sign.
Messageboards may be technically anonymous, but that's an oversimplification. Because... are they? Most of us know who I am, who HMM is, and who Sunderstone is. We may not know real names (frankly, I don't think we'll find anyone named "Hmm" on a birth certificate, but nice try!), but we see each other frequently and we have formed expectations for each other's behavior based on repeated interactions. We aren't anonymous in a way that matters, since none of us are planning to abruptly quit the forums and never come back. Our reputations and relationships here matter to us. People feel real to us.
I honestly think messageboards and Discord servers and old IRC chatrooms have emerged as some of the least toxic areas on the internet, and what toxicity emerges is mostly due to the fast pace, people being bad at text-based communication, and anger that would have arisen in-person, too. The combination of steady moderation and recurring faces means that aside from the odd throwaway account, or bigot who has learned to see certain people as less than human, we all end up caring about managing our behavior. When we lose our tempers, we're capable of walking it back. When we act snide, we're capable of apologizing. When we start to realize we're wrong, we stick around long enough to have the chance to accept it.
I don't think this being a messageboard is an excuse for bad behavior or ugly arguments. If anything, it's kind of a sign that we should be working harder. This is our stretch of highway, and it's only going to stay clean if we actively work to keep it that way. We can't blame Jack Dorsey for this one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I consider that diversity not a problem, but a strength.
Agree on diversity, I never saw it as a problem anywhere else. I'm just voiced my opinion on the topic of the original post.
Thanks for the respectful response. :)
|
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Respectful responses is what this thread is all about! And I am glad that you voiced your concerns, because I am certain that other people were thinking them as well. One of the most important steps in problem solving is understanding where the problems lie, and planning for them.
Hmm
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I consider that diversity not a problem, but a strength. This means that we all can pull from different skill sets when we collaborate and generate new ideas.
There is a limit on the compatibility of those ideas. On a good day You can have pickles or you can have chocolate, but they don't go in the same dish. On a bad day you've got sodium and water and they really don't go in the same dish...
|
Contributor
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can have pickles or you can have chocolate, but they don't go in the same dish.
You've never been pregnant, I see! But seriously, pickles and chocolate can learn to take turns.
As for sodium and water... I think that is basically what we had this past month. But not all explosive transformations are bad. We got a Paizo Union out of it, and a lot of us had a chance to learn a bit and change our perspectives.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I consider that diversity not a problem, but a strength. This means that we all can pull from different skill sets when we collaborate and generate new ideas.
There is a limit on the compatibility of those ideas. On a good day You can have pickles or you can have chocolate, but they don't go in the same dish. On a bad day you've got sodium and water and they really don't go in the same dish...
That might be true if you are limited to one project at a time, but if you have many at one time like Paizo does then you can use diversity to greater advantage. But even if water and sodium were working on the same project it may help to point out something that doesn't work out well and should be excluded from the final product.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You've never been pregnant, I see!
Look it runs in the family...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pickles are gross. I have the ability to rant for several minutes about the awful food like thing known as a pickle. Why would anyone do that to the perfectly good cucumber?
Only thing worse than pickles? Mayonnaise.
Oh no are you one of those crazy people that takes ketchup with fries? While mayonaise is the natural condiment?
Director of Community
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I hope it won't make moderation difficult! My intent was to make it less work for the moderators by having the community have better tools, not to make more work for your team!
Hmm
Kobold was right, the "less" got missed. Edited my post to put it back in. Got a chuckle out of the typo and ensuing discussion, though, so worth missing a few letters in my original post :D
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh no are you one of those crazy people that takes ketchup with fries? While mayonaise is the natural condiment?Pickles are gross. I have the ability to rant for several minutes about the awful food like thing known as a pickle. Why would anyone do that to the perfectly good cucumber?
Only thing worse than pickles? Mayonnaise.
NO! KETCHUP IS GODS AWFUL. WHY DO PEOPLE RUIN PERFECTLY GOOD FRENCH FRIES DROWNING THEM IN SUGARY TOMATO PASTE?
DO NOT GET ME STARTED ON MUSTARD.
|
Director of Community
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Alas, it was, I know the extremely unkind term for those otherwise innocent nuts...not EVER going to use it, but yeah, actually got in a heated argument with my father over my desire for him not to use that terminology.
This not-to-be-used term was also in my house and was something I had to unlearn as an adult. Grew up in Idaho in the late 70's/early 80's :(
Mayonaises is how Sarenrae and the Belgians intended fries….
but I agree on the sugary tomato horror called ketchup.
|
|
Oh no are you one of those crazy people that takes ketchup with fries? While mayonaise is the natural condiment?Pickles are gross. I have the ability to rant for several minutes about the awful food like thing known as a pickle. Why would anyone do that to the perfectly good cucumber?
Only thing worse than pickles? Mayonnaise.
I bet yer one of those people who gets nervous if they don't have at least a case of "friet saus" in the cupboard....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, friet saus is the sugary version of mayonaise….. important distinction
I think it's time for some fries war.
|
Contributor
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let me fold the two conversations into one another for a moment, Tonya. The light-hearted banter on fried foods and condiments was fun because there was nothing serious at stake. It's easy to have an agreeable disagreement when the stakes are low for everyone.
The real trick is how to disagree when the matter is closer to your heart, or when the stakes are uneven for you and another poster. I think that the conversations that we have been having about civil rights and acceptance on other threads are great examples of discussions with uneven stakes.
For folks in a precarious position in Society, these issues are life and death. For some others, it's a matter of academic interest that we think we can debate upon like the merits of mayonnaise versus ketchup.
In cases of uneven stakes, one of the best things those of us in positions of societal privilege can do is to listen to the people for whom the stakes are high. We don't know their lives and struggles the way they do. Some things are worth debating, but human rights... those should be held sacred. So... Here's a serious question. How can those of us on the outside best serve as allies and supporters of those struggling? What can we do to make this a more welcoming environment for all?
Hmm
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Debating where how far the rights of different people go and how they overlap, intersect, and interact is not denying or even debating the existence of human rights in general or any right in particular. It's defining society. "How far does this go before it hits something else?" Is a question that has to be asked of every right. Speech, the press, even the right to life itself have their limits somewhere when they abut into another right. How that question is answered is called society. We all have to live with it. We all have input. We all have value. Some of those may vary by individual , but they are not nothing.
I have never seen the concept of privlidge do anything to help a conversation stay or become agreeable in.. lets say mixed company. I don't know if I"ve seen a conversation where it hasn't launched the conversation into disagreeable like a catapult. The privlidge paradigm is an answer. And if you already have an answer, you don't have a conversation.
|
Contributor
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
The privlidge paradigm is an answer. And if you already have an answer, you don't have a conversation.
Privilege is a such a tough concept, and it does get backs up. Perhaps I should have found a different way to phrase my statement, or defined what I meant by privilege.
It's not something you are -- I am not criticizing those of us with a form of privilege as spoiled. It's something we have that may be completely invisible to us. As you stated before, it's really difficult to describe water to fish. Let me think of a less contentious way to describe what I mean. Because I want this to be a thoughtful discussion rather than a shouting fest.
Hmm
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Debating where how far the rights of different people go ...
To people who's rights are under constant flux statements like that can sound like their masters deciding their fate. You could lose recently gained fundamental rights. Debating also has the added connotation of internet GNAR added to make it sound more like a punishment to be endured rather than a pathway to truth. I understand the scholarly interest in debate, but that has been used frequently as a bait and switch tactic. I DON'T think that is what you are doing or saying, but other people have been doing a lot of that around here recently, so it is a sore subject.
I guess it depends on the power dynamic. When I was being prosecuted, debating my rights was a frightening high stakes struggle. When I was part of the class action, I was much more eager to have a debate about rights!
EDIT: Privilege is an unfortunate term because people ended up using it as a catch all term for everything from basic human rights, up to the most decadent luxuries, so it lost the clarity of it's original meaning.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
So... Here's a serious question. How can those of us on the outside best serve as allies and supporters of those struggling? What can we do to make this a more welcoming environment for all?
Hmm
I’ll throw a couple thoughts out there.
For background, I’ll acknowledge that I am a cisgender Caucasian Gen-X male who may not know what it is like to be on the outside looking in. But I have many friends and family who are, including a transgender friend and coworker, a non-binary family member, and too many others others to count. I also have a background as a civil negotiator with extensive experience in conflict resolution, albeit in a very narrow civil litigation area. My intent here is to humbly advance the discussion.
I think the #1 thing that folks like me can do to SHOW support is to EXPRESS support - right up front. I know that when I jumped into the conversation here all of like 5 days ago, this is what I failed to do - and I got a very negative reaction as a result. One thing I have learned is that if you do not tell people where you are coming from, they’ll decide on their own - and generally not in a good way.
Now that doesn’t mean you have to agree on everything. But even if you disagree about something specific, it helps to back up and point out where you agree. You can then gently try asking questions to find areas where you can agree.
I think the last thing would be not to take it personal. BNW is right that some terms cause other people to stiffen their spine and get defensive, but you may be blind to how other people react the same way to different terms. When other people get upset and cross a line, give them some space to calm down, come back, and preserve their dignity. You’ll appreciate it when they return the favor.
Just my 2 gp.
|
Contributor
|
| 16 people marked this as a favorite. |
We've been talking a lot about cis privilege, and some about white privilege. Privilege doesn't have to be white or cis, so let's use another example, one that may be less fraught with racial / identity concerns. This one comes from the Deaf / hard of hearing community. I have hearing privilege, and never realized it before starting to learn ASL and getting to know a few Deaf friends.
You're probably thinking -- oh, c'mon Hilary. Of course it is a privilege to hear! But hearing privilege is not actually about me being able to detect sounds. It's about how all of culture is geared towards me. If there is an emergency, sirens sound. I am not routinely left out of conversations by hearing friends who say, 'I'll explain it later' and then never do.
I can watch or listen to the news without being left out. Do you know who rare ASL interpretation is for most events and newscasts? Heck, when a Deaf artist performed an ASL interpretation of the National Anthem at the Super Bowl, Fox cut away from her after a few seconds to show the crowd because of course everyone that counted could still hear the singer. And this was for an ASL performance that they advertised.
I didn't have to fight for the right to learn in my own language. This is a fight that the Deaf community has to do all the time. ASL is a language that has been under siege for much of its existence. There are still Deaf kids who are denied the ASL language because the Hearing community insists that they learn only oral methods and lip-reading. (And there is at least one school for the Deaf that does not even teach lip-reading. The Memphis Oral School for the Deaf is a horror that denies deaf kids language.)
And I never saw this web of privilege that surrounds me as a hearing person because until I interacted with the Deaf community, it was invisible to me.
Because I have privilege, does this mean that I am a worse human being? No. I'm not being judged. I'm just being shown the invisible web that I carry with me that makes life easier for me, so that I can realize that others don't have those protections.
And maybe if enough of us see our privilege, we'll figure out a way to help those who've been left out.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Utterly tracks with my experience of working in the visual,impairment sphere.