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Basically anything is better than the Child of A&A. Fighter archetypes that trade out weapon training (and thus advanced weapon training) are to be avoided like the plague. Since (Advanced) Weapon Training is the best thing the fighter gets.
If you keep weapon training, you can make a more casty "Iron Caster" fighter by abusing the "Advanced Weapon Training" feat acquired through Martial Flexibility (either via a Brawler dip or the Barroom Brawler feat) selecting the Item Mastery AWT option to grab important spells.
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Basically anything is better than the Child of A&A. Fighter archetypes that trade out weapon training (and thus advanced weapon training) are to be avoided like the plague. Since (Advanced) Weapon Training is the best thing the fighter gets.
If you keep weapon training, you can make a more casty "Iron Caster" fighter by abusing the "Advanced Weapon Training" feat acquired through Martial Flexibility (either via a Brawler dip or the Barroom Brawler feat) selecting the Item Mastery AWT option to grab important spells.
I disagree, personally if i cared that much about weapon training, i would just go on the Myrmidarch Magus and get the advanced weapon training feats Giving me all that on top of all the good stuff you get out of magus, Or go on the Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest and do the same thing, making it fairly unimportant.
And if that's the BEST the class has to offer? Then it really says a lot about the strength of the class as a whole, might as well be an NPC class, so giving it up would be like dividing anything but zero, it will still be zero.
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I get that you like the Child of Acavna Fighter , but what's your deal with comparing it to a Paladin?
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Versatility is more than just having more options when building the character. Real versatility is having more things you are able to do. A paladin gets a lot more class abilities than a child of A&A, but the class features are set. So while the child of A&A may have more choices when building the character that does not mean it can do more once it is built.
Paladins still get better saves because they have good will saves, so even without divine graces they are still ahead. They also get a lot of other abilities including several immunities, at will detect evil, lay on hands and mercies, smite evil, divine bond, and channel energy. Paladins can also use two handed weapons which is the least feat intensive combat style. Since none of the paladins class abilities are tied to any specific weapon or type of weapon means they can function at full ability no matter what type of weapon they use. So while the paladin may not be as good with the bow as a dedicated archer being able to declare smite evil or use divine bond (weapon) with a bow can often compensate for the lack of feats.
Their spell casting is comparable to the child of A&A even with taking a slight hit in caster level. The big problem with a 4 level caster is that it limits the DC of the saving throw. Since the DC of the save is based on the level of the spell that means that the offensive spells of lesser casters are less potent than those of greater casters. Add this to the fact that their casting stat is usually considerably lower than the greater caster it makes their saving throws incredibly easy by comparison. When most of your spells are buffs and support this is not an issue, but it can really hamper an offensive caster.
Out of combat Paladins get diplomacy and sense motive as class skills and will have a decent CHA so can act as the party face with minimal investment of skill points. The child of A&A gets more skills, but other than spell related skills and linguist does not have much in the way of class skills, especially social skills.
Getting extra combat feats does allow you to focus on a combat style and excel at it. But it also means if you cannot use that combat style your character is a lot less powerful. Being able to use two weapons is all well and good until you are fighting something that is out of reach. At that point your character is a lot less effective. The same is true with the dedicated archer when they cannot use their bow. In that respect the paladin is actually more versatile than the child of A&A. If my two handed paladin is fighting a flying foe I can still use a bow and smite evil. I may not have the extra attacks of a dedicated archer, but the ability to add my CHA to hit, level to damage and bypass all DR means I can still make a meaningful contribution to the combat. What can the melee focused child of A&A do in the same circumstances?
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Personally my general belief is that the child of A&A is weaker in terms of raw damage output, but far more versatile in what it can be built as just due to the fact that it has 3 bonus feats.
Is it? The lack of proper proficiency basically puts you behind a feat, and the weak will save with zero help form class basically requires you to take Iron Will, eating up another feat slot.
The issue with your "far more versatile in what it can be built" argument is that how many potential playstyles a class offers is irrelevant for an actual character. When I play an archery character, whether or not my class would've let me play a TWF build is irrelevant. Considering that builds for the e.g. TWF and and thrown weapons are terrible, Paladin not supporting them doesn't make the class "overall weaker".
The other part of your mis-evaluation of Paladin is that you don't understand how powerful Smite Evil is.
First, "if you run a paladin in a campaign thats heavy on constructs....you're kinda screwed" is true... but that extremely rare. And when it's not the case, it's completely irrelevant - if you're playing in an ordinary campaign, that your class would be a bad choice in a totally different campaign doesn't in any way effect you (same as the build path thing above).
Second, despite what many people think or claim, lacking a daily recource is a weakness, not a strength. Basic game design allows an ability with limited uses to be stronger than an always on ability. The game is build so that the vast majority of fights are really easy, and for thos easy fights, a properly build martial doesn't need a damage boost from their class. And when your class features are seriously checked, when you need the full strength of your character, that your limited use abilities are limited is irrelevant.
Is Paladin sans Divine Grace better than CoAaA for every build? No. but "overall stronger"? Hell yes!
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Staying in the fight longer means doing more damage. The paladin with its immunities, lay on hands and mercies can be hard to take out of a fight. Divine grace is just part of that package.
And yeah, the odds are good that you’ll be capable of using smite evil every adventuring day. The harder problem with smite evil is wanting to horde it, because you can’t be sure which enemy you should have used it on.
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Pally without Divine Grace has a harsher point buy than usual. But the sentiment of the previous thread still holds. Pally>>>Child of A&A.
While the extra combat feats will help out a little, the Child of A&A just isn't a very strong chassis for any playstyle. It doesn't matter if you can build it in multiple ways if all those ways are mediocre. And as some people have already explained, a Paladin is actually more flexible in an actual fight since the bonuses from Smite Evil aren't dependent on any weapon.
STR build?
ASFC and no two-handed proficiency.
Sword n Board?
ASFC.
TWF?
More feats helps but without a source of added dmg the playstyle is weaker than the less feat-intensive Two-handed.
Mounted?
An Animal Companion costs three feats. A Pally can choose to get it as their Divine Bond at level 5.
Archery/Combat Maneuvers?
Bonus feats are really helpful here to get it online earlier. But the Child of A&A only starts getting bonus feats at lv 4 so before that you're no better than the Warrior NPC class. And when you've taken the essential feats, what then? You don't get any accuracy boost so the Pally will just overtake you.
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Paladin still has better saves, better skills, better proficiencies, and doesn't have to spend a swift action every time they cast a spell. And at least the Paladin can use real weapons.
I am really not impressed Child of War Fighter. I have tried to like it, tried VMC'ing it with various things, tried gestalting it, and everything it touches just comes out lackluster, at best.
The bonus combat feats just don't make up for... anything... at all. The swift action to cast is stupid. The whole archetype is clunky, and doesn't measure up to literally any other 4/9 casting options. Want 4/9 casting with Bloodrager spells? Be a Bloodrager. Bloodrager is a far superior option in literally every aspect.
I think I'd rather GM than play a Child of War Fighter. Like, if Child of War Fighter is my ONLY option, I think I will just sit this one out. Lol.
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I get that you like the Child of Acavna Fighter , but what's your deal with comparing it to a Paladin?It's an experiment I'm working on. I'm trying to gauge the power difference between the 2 and see just how wide it truly is.
It's huge. You made a joke about "If weapon training is so important, just play a MAC Warpriest or Myrmidarch"...but that's exactly what people do. Fighter is overall one of the weakest classes in Pathfinder. Advanced Weapon Training is one of the few patches that let it shine.
The first thing you should do is break down -exactly- what each class gets. For the Core Fighter, that's just 11 bonus feats and weapon training basically. For the Child that becomes 5 bonus feats across 20 levels and minor spellcasting. A full BAB lacking an accuracy booster means you'll struggle offensively in a lot of ways. 4 Level casting isn't good for offensive spells since your casting stat isn't a major priority. Since that means it'll mostly be buff or utility spells, it puts you in the same place the Paladin puts their spells even with the reduced caster level.
Is 5 bonus feats and 2 extra skill points worth:
Smite Evil(An accuracy and damage booster)
A Good Will save that you will never catch up to
Lay On Hands(effectively a massive extra hp pool)
Mercies(Excellent Condition Removal)
Detect Evil(A lie detector and utility spell)
Holy Bond(A Mount or another Accuracy Booster)
Immunity to Fear
Immunity to Disease
Immunity to Compulsions and Charms
Aura of Justice(An "I win this boss fight" button)
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A good way to judge "Feats" vs. "class features" is to look at "would you take this class feature as a feat".
The reason I am strongly in favor of martial flexibility to grab AWT to grab Item Mastery is that when you do this, your casting keys off your BAB and your Fort Save, so you can actually land that Bestow Curse or Dispel Magic.
There is very little I would want to do with a castery-Martial that is best done with the Child of A&A. Both the Medium and the Trappings of the Warrior Occultists are much better choices for this, IMO.
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Yeah I'm struggling to see how the Acavna Fighter keeps up as well. I really looked into it, but I think you'd have to make something out of Armour Training for this to be worth much. Heck the STELLBLOOD BLOODRAGER gets Armour Training, so all the CoA&A Fighter is giving you is a wider selection of bonus feats .
The INT-based casting is a little better - INT gives bonus spells and allows for CHA to be a dump stat - but otherwise it seems like a straight downgrade compared to an average-at-best Bloodrager archetype.
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VMC Wizard gives a Familiar, a Cantrip, and a Discovery. The Transmutation/Enhancement School can be used to beef up your stats.
VMC Witch gives a Familiar, a Cantrip, and a few Hexes.
VMC Magus gives Arcane Pool, a few Arcana, and Spellstrike.
VMC Alchemist gives Alchemy, Mutagen, and Bombs.
I haven't been able to really make anything with any of those aforementioned options using Child of War Fighter as the base. I tried. Lol.
Gestalting Child of War Fighter with Eldritch Scoundrel UnRogue is okay... I guess. Everything Child of War Fighter touches is just meh.
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Basically anything is better than the Child of A&A. Fighter archetypes that trade out weapon training (and thus advanced weapon training) are to be avoided like the plague. Since (Advanced) Weapon Training is the best thing the fighter gets.
If you keep weapon training, you can make a more casty "Iron Caster" fighter by abusing the "Advanced Weapon Training" feat acquired through Martial Flexibility (either via a Brawler dip or the Barroom Brawler feat) selecting the Item Mastery AWT option to grab important spells.
I disagree, personally if i cared that much about weapon training, i would just go on the Myrmidarch Magus and get the advanced weapon training feats Giving me all that on top of all the good stuff you get out of magus, Or go on the Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest and do the same thing, making it fairly unimportant.
{. . .}
Well, now that you mention it, either of those could do the Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter's job better than the Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter can, although comparing it to Warpriest is -- not an Apples to Oranges, but a Lemons to Oranges comparison, because the spell lists are different -- and yes, the Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter is a lemon, and you can't even make good lemonade out of it. Myrmidarch Magus is considered to be a lemon, but at least you can make good lemonade out of it. A Myrmidarch Magus only falls behind Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter by a couple of points of Total Attack Bonus (usually less), a few hit points, 2 bonus feats, and 2 ranks of Armor Training, but has better casting (even with Diminished Spellcasting), 3 Magus Arcana (which include options that are better than feats), a better Will Save, better weapon proficiency (Two-Handed weapons are usually impractical for a Myrmidarch due to not working with Spell Combat, but you could use them in an emergency), better action economy (you get real armored casting, not the lousy Arcane Armor Training in all but name), and although Weapon Training is numerically consumed by keeping Total Attack Bonus from falling behind by very much, it still opens up the Advanced Weapon Training options, which are nothing to sneeze at.
Meanwhile, as many people posted above in different words, Paladin losing Divine Grace but keeping everything else goes from outstanding down to merely very good.
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You could probably save CoA&A with the Ironbound Sword Samurai stacking trick. I don't see anything that CoA&A has that I'd want for any concept or build though. Getting the magus awkwardness of in combat casting without the tools that make it easier seems short sighted. Spending your swift action to cast at a limited spell failure reduction also seems too modest a benefit.
I feel like anything you built with CoA&A could be done better with magus, bloodrager or warrior panoply occultist.
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I cannot really find what, exactly, the Child of War archetype is actually trying to accomplish...
You get a Cantrip at level 2.
Swift action ASF reduction of 15% at 3.
Bonus combat feat at 4.
A 1st level spell at 5.
We are 5 levels in, and all I see is a Fighter that is "missing" two bonus combat feats and DOESN'T have Weapon Training. What, you use your ONE spell to buff you for ONE fight? What about all the other fights? You are behind because one cantrip and one spell straight blows compared to Weapon Training. We haven't even gotten into what Weapon Training opens up in terms of Advanced Weapon Training options.
It would have been a better archetype to remove armor proficiency entirely, replace Armor Training with your joke of spellcasting, and keep Weapon Training. Running around with Mage Armor or Silken Ceremonial Armor would still be worth it if you had Weapon Training...
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I must be missing something about Weapon Training. AWT only kicks in at 9th level and most of the benefits are...OK I guess? There are a few that are more interesting, but nothing truly inspiring. Some are just tripe (Trained Throw?). Item Mastery to Dimension Door is quite cool, but is that it? Most of the rest are just small bonuses to hit things or fix defences and skill gaps that don't plague classes other than Fighter.
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The thing you're missing is the Advanced Weapon Training feat which can be taken every 5 fighter levels, effectively doubling the amount you can get and letting you start at 5.
But a lot of the options are pretty good- Abundant Tactics is great with Barroom Brawler and Spellshatter (if you count as a dwarf), Armed Bravery and Fighter's Reflexes fix your will and reflex saves, Effortless Dual Wielding is a nice trick if you're dual-wielding, Versatile Training is 2*BAB skill ranks, but the one I like the best is Warrior Spirit which lets you put an enhancement equivalent weapon special ability on any magic weapon- including Bane(whatever you're fighting) and Training.
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I must be missing something about Weapon Training. AWT only kicks in at 9th level and most of the benefits are...OK I guess?
Warrior Spirit. It's a game changer. Grabbing any weapon enchantment is huge (see here for a list), and with the Training enchantment even lets you get temporary training in skills (the AWT feat -> Versatile Training) or pseudo-spellcasting (AWT feat -> Item Mastery AWT option -> (e.g.) Flight Mastery).
Archery/Combat Maneuvers?
Bonus feats are really helpful here to get it online earlier. But the Child of A&A only starts getting bonus feats at lv 4 so before that you're no better than the Warrior NPC class. And when you've taken the essential feats, what then? You don't get any accuracy boost so the Pally will just overtake you.
Archery, with its two bonus attacks, also profits even more than other playstyles from the huge damage bonus Smite Evil grants. Plus, CoAaA isn't even proficient with bows.
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I must be missing something about Weapon Training. AWT only kicks in at 9th level and most of the benefits are...OK I guess?Warrior Spirit. It's a game changer. Grabbing any weapon enchantment is huge (see here for a list), and with the Training enchantment even lets you get temporary training in skills (the AWT feat -> Versatile Training) or pseudo-spellcasting (AWT feat -> Item Mastery AWT option -> (e.g.) Flight Mastery).
Archery, with its two bonus attacks, also profits even more than other playstyles from the huge damage bonus Smite Evil grants. Plus, CoAaA isn't even proficient with bows.Archery/Combat Maneuvers?
Bonus feats are really helpful here to get it online earlier. But the Child of A&A only starts getting bonus feats at lv 4 so before that you're no better than the Warrior NPC class. And when you've taken the essential feats, what then? You don't get any accuracy boost so the Pally will just overtake you.
Uh did bows suddenly count as 2 handed weapons and i didnt notice?
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Uh did bows suddenly count as 2 handed weapons and i didnt notice?
Yeah it's not always clear whether they mean weapons classed as "two-handed", or weapons that require 2 hands. I think they are still proficient with ranged weapons.
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@Mudfoot
Much of it is just patching up the mess that is the fighter with more skill ranks and better saves. Which is sorely needed. What other classes take for granted is something fighter needs AWT for.
The stand-out choice is as you can see Warrior Spirit, especially for anyone that rushes Gloves of Dueling. But what is very hard to replicate through other means is Abundant Tactics. With Abundant Tactics you actually become better at using (certain) Combat Feats compared to other classes. Which is supposed to be the fighter's identity, imo.
It's a shame that fighter doesn't have more such abilities. If I had to design the Unchained Fighter I'd make the Combat Stamina feat and Abundant Tactics core features of the class. Then let weapon training (excluding Gloves of Dueling) count as actual BAB for prerequisites, feat effects, and iteratives.
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@Derklord
Archery pally is quite strong, for sure. I probably should have split the two to make my point clearer. That even if you go down a feat path that requires a lot of feats, unless your class can capitalize on it then you'll still be mediocre.
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One of the nice things about keeping an AWT feat slot open, so you can grab it with things like barroom brawler and warrior spirit into training, is that you get to grab feats that are limited in their use per day without spending a feat slot on them.
Like you can only use Curative Mastery to cast Breath of Life once per day, sure, which might not be a good use of 1/16th of your permanent feats, but if you're spending 1/7 of your daily barroom brawler uses or 1/7 of your warrior spirit uses instead it's NBD. Plus you can use the other 13 uses of those abilities to cast things like Dispel Magic, or Dimension Door, or Flight as well.
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If you are 5th level and have Advanced Weapon Training (Warrior Spirit), do you have to wait until 10th level before you can use Warrior Spirit to get Training (Advanced Weapon Training) on your weapon? (Since Training says "That feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for any other feats and functions for the wielder only if she meets its prerequisites", I am assuming yes.) Even if yes, this is really cool, and is a major plus not only for the Fighter, but also for the Myrmidarch Magus. Myrmidarch Magus also gets Weapon Training and thereby also qualifies for Advanced Weapon Training, AND has Tactical Adaptation to get another flex Combat Feat, and if Half-Elven, also has Paragon Surge to get Another flex feat that doesn't even have to be a Combat Feat -- it could be, for instance, Extra Magus Arcana. This totally leaves Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter in the dust (although that isn't hard). (At least Paladin even without Divine Grace gets to be an amazing tank.)
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Uh did bows suddenly count as 2 handed weapons and i didnt notice?
- "" CRB pg. 141
"" CRB pg. 147
The weapon rule introduction lists rangedness and handedness as seperate categories ("" CRB pg. 141). The light/one-handed/two-handed seperation in the table is explicitly only for melee weapons, which means that the classification for ranged weapons is, as per the first quote, done by the weapon's description and not done by the weapon table.
Melee: "Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively". Ranged: "Most projectile weapons require two hands to use". Is anyone honestly trying to tell me that one of these two virtually identical descriptions counts as a "two-handed weapon" but the other does not? Things should be the same, or they should be different.
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Have to agree with what most other folks are leaning. Even though the Pally isn't one of my top classes, I've looked at building a PC without Divine Grace (Oath of Chastity/against Savagery, Gray paladin, Martyr, and Tortured Crusader to name a few). I've never had the want to make a Child of AnA; it felt like one of the weaker Fighter archetypes, which is saying a lot since all of my PCs end up having some casting options.
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Based on abilities alone, the paladin class is very strong. The problem with paladin is more about its roleplaying restrictions. As an adventurer you will eventually need to make some questionable choices. And typically having 3 to 5 other party members, it's too likely that at least one of them is going to be difficult for a paladin to associate with.
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IMO, a paladin with divine grace is one of the best "martial" (d10 HD) classes in the game. And better than many others. The only real contestant IMO is bloodrager. However, paladin is more versatile in builds imo, as you can easily make a paladin gunslinger (with 1 dip in gunslinger), archer, or what have you.
Paladin also are a lot more efficient at tanking, no matter the scenario. Even compared to arcane bloodrager. ( though they lack the raw damage the bloodrager will do, outside smite) Since paladin have super efficient self healing. At level 8, that can be 5d6+10 healing as a swift (fey foundling/greater mercy) which makes up for the damage their AC/good saves didn't help against.
Paladins also get around the "DC" problem, by having a plethora of spells that don't require DCs, most buff spells.
in all honesty, if you set me down as either a full 1-20 fighter or 1-20 paladin without divine grace, I'd pick a paladin powerwise every day of the week.
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Paladin also are a lot more efficient at tanking, no matter the scenario. Even compared to arcane bloodrager. ( though they lack the raw damage the bloodrager will do, outside smite) Since paladin have super efficient self healing. At level 8, that can be 5d6+10 healing as a swift (fey foundling/greater mercy) which makes up for the damage their AC/good saves didn't help against.
This, specifically, is a little dodgy(heh) because Bloodragers get access to Mirror Image, Blur and Displacement.
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{. . .}
Melee: "Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively". Ranged: "Most projectile weapons require two hands to use". Is anyone honestly trying to tell me that one of these two virtually identical descriptions counts as a "two-handed weapon" but the other does not? Things should be the same, or they should be different.
I wish they had gone ahead and made ranged weapons that require two hands "two-handed weapons" (and some ranged weapons would be one-handed weapons, notably hand crossbows and slings, even though these need two hands for reloading). This would have required some extra text for things like Two-Handed Fighter to specify their abilities as applying to two-handed melee weapons -- and likewise for Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter, but in a world good enough for the requested clarity and consistency, the Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter wouldn't have been such a bad archetype, if it existed at all.
Related to this, I wish Paizo had created a Magus-Fighter second-generation backcross hybrid class that would be full BAB, d10, 4/9 casting. Done right, this would easily eclipse the Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter that we actually have (although admittedly, that isn't hard).
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This, specifically, is a little dodgy(heh) because Bloodragers get access to Mirror Image, Blur and Displacement.Mildly Campaign dependent. Like, these 3 skills are a lot less usefull in WOTR (because most of the later bosses and even mooks have true sight) then they would be in like, any other module. If you are not facing permanent true sight, Mirror image is still the best defensive spell in the game, even if you allow splash damage vs images.
Bloodrager do get shield though, and can get it from a Wand without UMD, which is imho underappreciated. +4AC starting at level 4 is quite notable.
Oh, one scenario where a Bloodrager completely trumps a Paladin is a prison break. Several bloodragers cannot be really disarmed without amputation, prison breaks often require association with evil characters etc.
Ahem.... haha
But yes, my point is that, even in unfavorable encounters, the paladin will usually always provide what it provides. Which is pretty good. Since they give bonus to saves to nearby allies as well.
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Oh, one scenario where a Bloodrager completely trumps a Paladin is a prison break. Several bloodragers cannot be really disarmed without amputation, prison breaks often require association with evil characters etc.
You can associate with evil characters if necessary. You just can't do so more than absolutely necessary. A paladin typically has a higher CHA and Diplomacy so he can rally prisoners to his side more effectively than a typical Bloodrager. Might be able to cut a deal with the guards too.
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^Don't forget your BMX Bandit Rogue ally while you're at it.
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Paladins get a LOT more use from a high Charisma than a Bloodrager does. Most Bloodragers I've seen take a 14 Cha and call it a day. They might even take a wisdom headband over a Cha one just to juice their meh Will Save.
Intimidate is useful for short term gains, but typically a prison break takes a good amount of time to plan and gather resources.
A Paladin whose been framed probably isn't that morally concerned about breaking out of jail. Depending on level, he could fight nonlethally quite well with a Holy Bond Merciful Weapon. If the guards are evil, guess whose getting a smiting?
Paladins could summon a mount which isn't flight but at the level a Bloodrager gets flight, has a slew of options as well.
The only thing you can really expect from a Paladin is that they will never commit an evil act.
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Oh, depending on bloodline, Bloodragers can just fly without equipment, while paladins need to be aasimars for that.
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Basically anything is better than the Child of A&A. Fighter archetypes that trade out weapon training (and thus advanced weapon training) are to be avoided like the plague. Since (Advanced) Weapon Training is the best thing the fighter gets.
If you keep weapon training, you can make a more casty "Iron Caster" fighter by abusing the "Advanced Weapon Training" feat acquired through Martial Flexibility (either via a Brawler dip or the Barroom Brawler feat) selecting the Item Mastery AWT option to grab important spells.
Yeah, at this point, whenever Weapon and Armor Training are replaced for an archetype, it should have been the Bonus Feats at the following levels, unless the Training applies to specific groups.
Seriously, Fighters get loads of feats, they can lose a few...
Also, there is no way to get back Weapon/Armor Training with Bonus Feats, which would have been a no-brainer...
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Pretty sure the Magus class existed before Child of War, so it's not like we didn't have examples of how to handle casting spells in armor. Arcane Duelist Bards were doing it before both Child of War Fighters and Magi, so all evidence points towards Child of War being written by someone who secretly hates Fighters.
Child of War is direct sabotage against the Fighter class. It is literally a trap. Whomever did this to the Fighter deserves to stub their toe every day of their pathetic natural life...
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^Worrisome thought: What if they don't have a natural life?
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Pretty sure the Magus class existed before Child of War, so it's not like we didn't have examples of how to handle casting spells in armor. Arcane Duelist Bards were doing it before both Child of War Fighters and Magi, so all evidence points towards Child of War being written by someone who secretly hates Fighters.
Child of War is direct sabotage against the Fighter class. It is literally a trap. Whomever did this to the Fighter deserves to stub their toe every day of their pathetic natural life...
I honestly fail to see the sabotage, since when you boil it down the fighter is just the NPC warrior with some bonus feats and a little extra damage. The fighter was NEVER a good class, and acting like taking away advanced weapon training would make it any less one dimensional and irrelevant is frankly disingenuous.
Really i don't think there's any other class in the game that falls off as hard as the fighter does after the first few levels. Far as I'm concerned, the child of A&A is a complete lateral move from the base fighter, it wouldn't make it any weaker.
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Also keep in mind that many considered weapon training to be trash before the advanced weapon training options were added.
And also that some writers don’t know what’s coming down the pipeline near their own creations. When the child was being designed, losing weapon training was probably an obvious trade.
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Also keep in mind that many considered weapon training to be trash before the advanced weapon training options were added.
Not exactly "trash", but it's objectively weak for sa primary class feature. Hell, it's half of what Barbarians got four levels ago! Many people overvalue the "it's always on" thing, but as I said in my first post, lacking a daily recource is a weakness, not a strength.
Before AWT, trading out Weapon Training wasn't a big deal. And even with AWT is it actually a fair trade for casting, people just love to whine and complain about losing, well, anything really, even if what they gain more than makes up to it. And just how people whine about unMonk losing strong will save (ignoring how huge an upgrade it is), and people whining about the, like, three Rogue Talents unRogue loses (ignoring how much better it is), and whine that Shifter's Wild Shape is more limited (ignoring that it's actually better than Druid's WSA in practice), is the idea that CoAaA was "one of the weaker Fighter archetypes", and similar notions, just people badmouthing things for being tradeoffs rather than free add-ons.
CoAaA has in-class flight, in-class pounce, in-class answer to invisible enemies, in-class answer to swarms... honestly, this is a huge upgrade over non-AWT Fighter, and while AWT does allow Fighters to also get most of the above (especially with the Item Mastery feats), and probably has more flexibility in the field, the power of even the limited 4/9 casting allows CoAaA to compete.
No, the issue with CoAaA is not that it's weaker than a vanilla Fighter, but rather that is has no niche. Fighter has some builds where it works better than other classes, and at least appeals to people who don't want spellcasting, but CoAaA has none of that.
This would have required some extra text for things like Two-Handed Fighter to specify their abilities as applying to two-handed melee weapons
- You can scratch the subjunctive mood, what I said does apply to the THF's Overhand Chop and Backswing abilities, too, making them apply to two-handed ranged weapons RAW. Weapon Training being restricted to melee-weapons prevents it from being abusuable, though.
It's not an issue with the term "two-handed weapon", though, as Double Slice also has the same problem when TWFing firearms or crossbows, and may even have been the blueprint for the THF abilities.
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Really i don't think there's any other class in the game that falls off as hard as the fighter does after the first few levels. Far as I'm concerned, the child of A&A is a complete lateral move from the base fighter, it wouldn't make it any weaker.
Is this a change of opinion from before you made the threads? Because otherwise that means you had an extremely low opinion of the Paladin.
I don't know how much you value 4th level prepared casting but what the Child of A&A gives up is not equal in value to it. You say that the fighter falls off hard, but the Child of A&A manages to neuter the early levels to such a degree that you don't even fall off. You're already at the bottom and you stay there for the entire 20 levels.
Even without Advanced Weapon Training, the slow burn of 4th level casting never manages to offset to loss of all those bonus feats and the Att/Dmg boost from Weapon Training.
There is no point to start taking levels in the archetype, and there's no point to staying in the archetype.
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Really i don't think there's any other class in the game that falls off as hard as the fighter does after the first few levels. Far as I'm concerned, the child of A&A is a complete lateral move from the base fighter, it wouldn't make it any weaker.Is this a change of opinion from before you made the threads? Because otherwise that means you had an extremely low opinion of the Paladin.
I don't know how much you value 4th level prepared casting but what the Child of A&A gives up is not equal in value to it. You say that the fighter falls off hard, but the Child of A&A manages to neuter the early levels to such a degree that you don't even fall off. You're already at the bottom and you stay there for the entire 20 levels.
Even without Advanced Weapon Training, the slow burn of 4th level casting never manages to offset to loss of all those bonus feats and the Att/Dmg boost from Weapon Training.
There is no point to start taking levels in the archetype, and there's no point to staying in the archetype.
I actively refuse to play any class that doesn't have access to SOME form of spellcasting, as there's no reason you wouldn't unless you're a barbarian or some sort of anti mage and have an active hatred of spellcasting.
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I actively refuse to play any class that doesn't have access to SOME form of spellcasting, as there's no reason you wouldn't unless you're a barbarian or some sort of anti mage and have an active hatred of spellcasting.
Ideally, it would be because your training would make you equivalent in other ways if the level and CR system is to be believed.
Slayers are fine though.
The Child of A&A though I can say "Just play a Bloodrager". There's nothing it really does unique.
The fighter was NEVER a good class, and acting like taking away advanced weapon training would make it any less one dimensional and irrelevant is frankly disingenuous.
Well yeah. The Child of A&A doesn't really change that either. But Advanced Weapon Training DOES make it "good enough" and strong in some aspects.
AWT lets you:
Use daily use combat feats more
Fixes the Fighter's Will Save
Gives more AC for Two Weapon, Two handed and Archery fighters
Solo Tactics
Lets you use niche or specialized weaponry much more effectively(Focused Weapon)
Get more Skill Points
Use a standard action to JACK your attack bonuses EVEN BEYOND(Warrior Spirit)
The Child of A&A lets you:
Get 2 more skill points
Cast a spell twice a day
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The fighters biggest strength over most other classes is that it is actually a great base for multiclassing. Not particularly into many of the "I want to stay 1-20" classes, but you can make exceptional characters with 3-5 levels of fighter as a base. Even if you branched off into a class like warpriest or magus.
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I actively refuse to play any class that doesn't have access to SOME form of spellcasting, as there's no reason you wouldn't unless you're a barbarian or some sort of anti mage and have an active hatred of spellcasting.
It genuinely feels like no 4 level caster is really going to supply meaningful spellcasting acumen, except maybe the medium if you spend a lot of time with with either of the casting aspects (though the champion one is the best mechanically).
Pathfinder is chock full of really strong 6 level casters, so you should probably just stick to those if you don't want to be a full caster. They generally all get an accuracy fixer too so they're not really behind true martials (they just get extra attacks later.)
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I actively refuse to play any class that doesn't have access to SOME form of spellcasting, as there's no reason you wouldn't unless you're a barbarian or some sort of anti mage and have an active hatred of spellcasting.It genuinely feels like no 4 level caster is really going to supply meaningful spellcasting acumen, except maybe the medium if you spend a lot of time with with either of the casting aspects (though the champion one is the best mechanically).
Pathfinder is chock full of really strong 6 level casters, so you should probably just stick to those if you don't want to be a full caster. They generally all get an accuracy fixer too so they're not really behind true martials (they just get extra attacks later.)
As a ranger and paladin fan, I disagree with this. Its just by the time their spells really start to show up, other casters outshine them. But as far as self efficiency goes, 4th level casting really gives "full martials" a solid boost.