The Phoenix Down Problem

[DRD1812]

I’ve been there. You’ve been there. We’ve all been there. The party has got the perfect item for the job, but it’s a single-use potion/scroll/whatever, and there’s no way you’re sacrificing your precious for commonplace purposes.

I think of this as the "phoenix downs" problem, referencing the trope of Final Fantasy players ending their playthrough with a trove of never-used resurrection items.

My question to the board: As a GM, how can you encourage stingy players to actually use all those fun one-shot items? Are there additional incentives that can help tight-fisted players loosen their grip on a potion hoard, or is this a spot where GMs should remain hands-off and let players do what they do?

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

[Hugo Rune]

It sounds rather like the party aren't playing as a team if single use items are considered personal rather than party property. IRL platoons have one machine gunner but the entire platoon carry ammunition for it. The machine gun is used to suppress the enemy allowing other members of the platoon to move. The whole thing would unravel pretty quickly if the machine gunner only used the gun for self defence and the other platoon members refused to carry ammunition for it.

[Pizza Lord]

Have them taken by bad guys... who then use them. If not against the PCs, then against others in furtherance of their schemes.

Use it or lose it.

[Peg'giz]

I wouldn't say that the party isn't playing as a team, but most times it's more "I shouldn't use it now, it will be more impactfull later" or simply the player forget about the item (happened to me and my group A LOT, especially with things like scrolls & poitions).

I tackeled it by simply making sure the enemies also use such items (and let the players know it). This way it reminds the players that they also have one-time items they can use.

Also never "punish" the players for using an item "too soon" and always make the item count.
Nothing is more drustrating then using your one-time-summon-large-elemental gem and then the combat is over after 1-2 rounds later...

[OmniMage]

To be fair, a ring of wish is not a phoenix down. It can be used for many other things besides resurrection. The wizard might just be being pragmatic. If the adventure is over and there are no more foes to face, then maybe its a good idea to wait to get the proper supplies for a resurrection. Its not like a wizard has nothing to do for several weeks. They could craft a few magic items while they wait. Hopefully things remain peaceful until they can rez their friend without using the ring.

That said, an asset never used might as well not exist. I understand that there is the danger of not using supplies to prevent death. Death can be many times more expensive to fix than using the potions and other supplies that could prevent death.

In my opinion, I think the party should vote as what to do with the ring.

[Java Man]

OP: you started this discussion last year:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43286?The-Phoenix-Down-Problem#1

[Evilserran]

Hugo Rune wrote:

It sounds rather like the party aren't playing as a team if single use items are considered personal rather than party property. IRL platoons have one machine gunner but the entire platoon carry ammunition for it. The machine gun is used to suppress the enemy allowing other members of the platoon to move. The whole thing would unravel pretty quickly if the machine gunner only used the gun for self defence and the other platoon members refused to carry ammunition for it.

Um not sure where you served if at all, but as a medic for 14.5 years attached to infantry, your statement is entirely incorrect. The gunner carries a couple hundred rounds with his gun, and his spotter carries the rest. It's a two person team. Furthermore, in the platoon, there is one "gunner" squad usually consisiting of 5-6 persons, maybe as many as 10-12 but thats very rare. Each team consists of 2-3 people top, plus the squad leader The other 20-25 have nothing to do with the weapons team ammo supply. That all being said, party loot is for the party to use as needed and should not be hoarded. Individual loot, well, that depends on whom you have in your groups. I am very tightfisted on most my items unless i need them to return to combat effectiveness. A friend of mine however, spends around 80% of their stuff on consumables and throws em around all willy nilly because it amuses him. I have seem him stop cart with tree tokens, slide down a mountain on a swan boat, throw campfire pearls just to toast marshmellows, glue someone to a chair for a prank, and then even provide the universal solvent...

[Mudfoot]

He might be thinking of WW2 German infantry. The MG42 had such an insane ROF that it would exhaust its ammo supply very quickly so everyone nearby would often carry extra ammo.

[DRD1812]

Java Man wrote:

OP: you started this discussion last year:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43286?The-Phoenix-Down-Problem#1

Well crap in a hat. I really ought to take better notes. :/

We're getting to the end-game of my mega-dungeon at the moment, so it's on my mind again as my players still have that un-used wish item. I'm beginning to fret that it's going to deus-ex the finale.

[mikeawmids]

Do you not have another web comic link to illustrate the above point?

[DRD1812]

mikeawmids wrote:

Do you not have another web comic link to illustrate the above point?

In point of fact, this one expresses my feelings nicely.

[Mark Hoover 330]

LOL yes to all of the points; my players are definitely stingy with resources, I feel your pain on getting to ending points in campaigns and also I've probably re-asked the same 5 questions on these boards like, a million times.

As far as this thread's topic goes though, understand why they're being stingy and play accordingly. Players horde a single scroll of Miracle for a completely different reason than they horde a potion of Tongues. Also I'll second what Peg'giz said upthread; could be the players just forgot about it.

Not exactly the same but in my wilderness campaign they have a Rope of Climbing that they used once at level 3 and forgot they had until recently. They'd finished off a small horde of demons and needed to ascend a steep mountain to enter an alchemist's castle without arousing suspicion. The Investigator/Wizard is all out of Fly scrolls, their spells are running low, I suggest they climb but everyone's like "that's suicide." Literally as they're discussing one player flips over his character sheet, narrows his eyes and is like "folks, didn't we used to have a Rope of Climbing?"

Last but not least... players think in terms of their current level. Why resort to using the Climb skill when you have Fly spells? It may be that the unused items don't scale with their current level of power.

As to how to MAKE them use these items? Well, if anyone can tell me a definitive way to MAKE the players do what you want in a game, you let me know!

[Algarik]

Hoarding habits might be a reason for the ''pheonix down problem'' but as both player and DM i found that usually most consummable items aren't very great to begin with.

- Potions provoke attack of opportunity and generally don't last long enough.
- Scrolls are fine for niche spell caster never want to prepare, but are generally pretty meh in combat thanks to their spell DCs. Beside, it require specialisation one might not be able to afford to use them reliably.
- Wands are fine on certain spell, but suffer from the same problem as Scrolls, their spell DC is bad.

Wondrous items are too diverse to quantify, but outside of the ring of wishes, most items with charges had pretty mild spell DC, again making them unreliable at best.

This leaves staves and rods which already see plenty of use, but they are rechargeable and are very powerful.

[Joey Cote]

As a player in our campaign we knew a dragon was soon going to attack our town. I had managed to purchase dust of disappearance, potion of heroism and potion of fly in order to try to deal with the creature. I spent the entire duration of the dust of disappearance completely whiffing while trying to hit the dragon or trying to catch up with the dragon as it flew away only to stop and set another building alight. In the end, our archer and wizard did enough damage to it that the dragon decided to retreat.

It felt really, really bad to have blown thousands of gold in one shot magic items to have done nothing in the battle, especially when "defeating" the opponent also resulted in the town taking quite a bit of damage and not gaining anything out of the fight. And now I don't have that money to upgrade my other equipment.

So, I guess what I am trying to illustrate is that especially in a PnP game like Pathfinder expendable items can be a major cost. As one of my friends put it, "Using things like that feels like throwing gold into the void." That heroism and fly potion as well as the dust of disappearance should have given me a good chance to really impact the fight, but due to disadvantage of random dice rolls it was all a waste.

[Senko]

Speaking as a player there's also the 'Oh right I could have done that . . ." issue. I tend to consider consumeables as items of last resort because anything else I rest and I can do it all again but once I use a consumeable its gone for good. So I tend to hang onto them relying on other reuseable options and saving the consumeable till I really, really need it. Then when I do need it I forget I have it because I'm not used to thinking of it till after the fight when I'm looking at my things and realize "oh right I hand a wand of fireball . . . that would have been good for those plant monsters"

One thing I've considered is trying to replace consumeables with reuseables e.g. instead of "wand of cure moderate wounds." You find a "Stone of cure moderate wounds" this rune inscribed stone when placed on an injured individual and the command word is used casts cure moderate wounds 3 times a day. Not sure its the same for others but I'd feel more more comfortable using an item that has less uses today but will be available again tommorow over an item that has more uses today but becomes kindling when you've used all the charges.

[Diego Rossi]

@Senko: the problem with items with X daily uses is that they cost way more than consumables. One of my characters wanted to male a prayer beads like item that did cast 5 CLW/day, mostly to stop bleeding and help with small wounds. An item that casts CLW 5 times/day cost 1,800 gp if it occupies a body slot, a bit more than 2 CLW wands. You need to use it 145 times for it to be more convenient than the wands (and at most you cure 5d8+1 in a day), 29 days of adventuring. With the medium experience track, it is not granted that you will get 29 days of adventuring before the end of the AP.
While perfectly logical as an in-world item when you consider that it can function for hundreds of years, for PCs it is not logic.

In Pathfinder, most single-use items share one or more of the following problems:
- too costly for the effect, so often they become available too late to be useful;
- low DC;
- minimum CL, so short duration, low damage, and the minimum effect for the spell;
- if they are class limited like scrolls, they require relatively hard UMD checks to use;
- standard action to use;
- using them provokes;
- the ones that seem extremely useful when you have an emergency, like Neutralize poison or Remove disease, in reality are almost useless as they require a CL check to work (again, the minimum CL problem).

Currently, I am playing the PC game Wrath of the righteous. At several times I had 80-100 potions of CLW and no reason to use them as "spending" the time to drink them means burning the duration of my buffs. It is more functional to use faster methods to recover hp.
Potions of shield of faith? Nice, but it is a +1 deflect bonus, at a low level you often lack the action to use them, at medium level, and after you have ring +1 or better.

There is some stuff you use regularly, even more often if some member of your group can make it.
The paladin in my gaming group did take the feat Craft wand and he and my magus made several wands of Shield with a CL or 2 or 3 for him, he made the CLW wands for the group. All stuff that we could do in 1 day without problems.
Between level 7 and 13 he used up 1 wand of shield and 3/4 of a second.
We had an Earth elemental gem, found, I think, at level 7. Never used. Honestly, a CR 5 monster can only be used as a distraction used to absorb a few attacks by a level 7+ party.

[Senko]

Diego Rossi wrote:

@Senko: the problem with items with X daily uses is that they cost way more than consumables. One of my characters wanted to male a prayer beads like item that did cast 5 CLW/day, mostly to stop bleeding and help with small wounds. An item that casts CLW 5 times/day cost 1,800 gp if it occupies a body slot, a bit more than 2 CLW wands. You need to use it 145 times for it to be more convenient than the wands (and at most you cure 5d8+1 in a day), 29 days of adventuring. With the medium experience track, it is not granted that you will get 29 days of adventuring before the end of the AP.

While perfectly logical as an in-world item when you consider that it can function for hundreds of years, for PCs it is not logic.

In Pathfinder, most single-use items share one or more of the following problems:
- too costly for the effect, so often they become available too late to be useful;
- low DC;
- minimum CL, so short duration, low damage, and the minimum effect for the spell;
- if they are class limited like scrolls, they require relatively hard UMD checks to use;
- standard action to use;
- using them provokes;
- the ones that seem extremely useful when you have an emergency, like Neutralize poison or Remove disease, in reality are almost useless as they require a CL check to work (again, the minimum CL problem).

Currently, I am playing the PC game Wrath of the righteous. At several times I had 80-100 potions of CLW and no reason to use them as "spending" the time to drink them means burning the duration of my buffs. It is more functional to use faster methods to recover hp.
Potions of shield of faith? Nice, but it is a +1 deflect bonus, at a low level you often lack the action to use them, at medium level, and after you have ring +1 or better.

There is some stuff you use regularly, even more often if some member of your group can make it.
The paladin in my gaming group did take the feat Craft wand and he and my magus made several wands of Shield with a CL or 2 or 3 for him, he made the CLW...

That last bit was more GM consideration as in rather than giving the party 3 cure light wounds potions I give them 2 and a stone of cure light useable 3 a day.

I agree with you on the issues its why I tend to hang onto consumeables as a last resort and am reluctant to use them. Also playing wrath and I generally only use potions when I want to push on just a bit more but have used all my spells (as Owlcat's idea of appropriate encounters is generally party average level +15, poor sleep never even got used at the start). Even then its only the healing potions I have pretty much never used any of the other potions, I have used the daily use items though summoning several monavic deva's or grown nabusu even once a day has allowed me to beat several powerful enemies (like the lvl 27 treeant vs my lvl 11 party).

[Diego Rossi]

In some instances, I have used the CLW potions to heal back my characters and conserve spells. After 3 characters drunk something like 80 CLW potions, I think you can track them by the empty bottles and the puddles in the corners ;-)

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Diego Rossi wrote:

In some instances, I have used the CLW potions to heal back my characters and conserve spells. After 3 characters drunk something like 80 CLW potions, I think you can track them by the empty bottles and the puddles in the corners ;-)

Reminds me of my inquisitor who filled his hip flask with cure moderate wounds potions since the party was looting so many.