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Congratulations, to Paizo, the Paizo Union, and the fans, freelancers, and community who helped make this happen.
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Now a bunch of fans are going to have to put their money where their mouth is.
I just bought three books. Happy?
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I don't work for Paizo so it doesn't really affect me but I'm sure that the folks at UPW appreciate it.
Wow, congratulations to the employees working together. Man I will be honest and say I did not expect you guys to get recognized without a vote.
This is a step in the right direction Paizo. Looking forward to the work you guys are going to put in to keep moving in the right direction.
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Now a bunch of fans are going to have to put their money where their mouth is.
Perhaps, but there is still a lot of us who never put much weight to Paizo acknowledging the union, a step that was virtually inevitable given the near unanimous support of the staff. Now, the real work begins. I will continue as I have from the start of all this in that I will return to my purchasing ways if/when Paizo demonstrates a change in their practices. All of this is still just talk. I am happy for the union and their progress to date, but I am not yet satisfied.
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Now a bunch of fans are going to have to put their money where their mouth is.Perhaps, but there is still a lot of us who never put much weight to Paizo acknowledging the union, a step that was virtually inevitable given the near unanimous support of the staff. Now, the real work begins. I will continue as I have from the start of all this in that I will return to my purchasing ways if/when Paizo demonstrates a change in their practices. All of this is still just talk. I am happy for the union and their progress to date, but I am not yet satisfied.
If you don't want to support them or whatever then don't. Kinda simple really. This seems to be a you thing though. Personally I am ambivalent to the unionization, as I do not work there.
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Wow, okay. I didn't want to spam all three threads, but I guess I have to: No, it's not just a TwilightKnight thing. I fully agree with them on this. We are waiting to see how Paizo engages with the union in negotiations and how other issues are now handled, now that the union has been officially recognized. This is just a really positive first step.
If you want to support them, or whatever, then do. If you don't care one way or another about the union, what point are you hoping to make here?
Anyways, back on topic: I'd really like to extend deep and personal thank-yous to every Paizo employee and freelancer who stood by the union. It took a lot of courage and a lot of conviction, and it meant the world to see it unfold. Thank you. Unfortunately, I don't know if I'll get around to thanking every single individual personally, so for now, this generalized thank-you will have to do. <3
I think a union is a positive first step, in particular for a country with poor labor laws, hopefully it brings the change the employees want. I also hope that if this does impact eg prices, consumers willingness (and ability) to pay is sufficient to not hurt the people in the long run.
But then the countries with strict labor laws are still going strong economically, so I remain positive.
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If you want to support them, or whatever, then do. If you don't care one way or another about the union, what point are you hoping to make here?
Well just got in from a 16 hour day and was catching up and the same answer was on all several posts.....was wondering what's up, cuz it feels like grandstanding. More than feels if I am honest, it is. This thing became a thing what today or yesterday (days blur during the week sorry, joy for the 60 hr workweek in 5 days), then it occurred to me after your reply, some people will never be satisfied.
Trust the process.
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Do you consider it grandstanding to not flip your positions on a dime? We've always been clear about what bothers us. The main issues we raised still haven't been addressed.
I don't trust the process. This is the first time the process has been put into practice, so why would I? That's like trusting someone you've never met. I'm waiting to see what comes next. You've made it perfectly clear you don't care what comes next, and while I honestly don't really respect your opinion all that much, I respect your right to express it respectfully. Accusing us of grandstanding--of, to put it in the terms of the day, negotiating in bad faith--is not respectful.
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Ditto, with respect. How can you not trust the process, it’s happening and moving rather fast. Paizo accepted the union and it’s moving forward. Now to the negotiating table. Is everyone going to get their wants? No not at all but that is the process.
As far as the transphobia allegations. Was thinking bout that in the shower a few minutes ago. I expect new policy to be made but I don’t expect an apology or admittance of wrongdoing. To do so would legally be problematic.
This is what y’all wanted. I personally can’t wait to see how it shakes out but honestly I expect business as usual as most of us are not privy to the going’s on. I do expect a price increase and honestly don’t mind paying a few more shekels if it helps folk who’s work I enjoy put a little extra bacon (or appropriate vegan option) on the table
Edited because process became princess in ‘how can you not trust’ almost left it as it made me chuckle
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Dang, now I kind of wish I had changed my username to "Kobold Princess" those weeks ago, just so I could've won this argument by default now.
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As far as the transphobia allegations. Was thinking bout that in the shower a few minutes ago. I expect new policy to be made but I don’t expect an apology or admittance of wrongdoing. To do so would legally be problematic.
I’m not American so maybe you folks really do sue each other as much as the stereotype suggests. Is this really true though?
I mean even politicians here make pretty carefully crafted “I regret….” statements that address an issue without admitting any legal liability.
I for one wouldn’t want Paizo to talk specifically about Crystal’s experience anyway - that’s a matter between them and her and she shouldn’t be dragged into anything she doesn’t want to be.
I do want to hear that they’ve improved - like “we didn’t have a written policy, now we do” kind of thing. That’s not going to open anyone up to a lawsuit, is it?
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Steve, maybe not legal liability now but admitting it I would think could lead to something down the road, then it becomes ‘they have a history of’
As far as opening up a lawsuit who knows. Your idea and my idea in the policy/statement there is exactly what I was thinking. The room thing.
Edit: I’m not a lawyer though I could be way off base. I’m basically crafting this word soup based on my legal experience recently and how HR works with paper trails.
Edit 2: now I sound criminal.
Also crafted apologies and crocodile tears are a thing here as well.
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As far as the transphobia allegations. Was thinking bout that in the shower a few minutes ago. I expect new policy to be made but I don’t expect an apology or admittance of wrongdoing. To do so would legally be problematic.I’m not American so maybe you folks really do sue each other as much as the stereotype suggests. Is this really true though?
No, not at all. We talked about this somewhere else recently, but it's an absurd stereotype mainly promoted by companies who don't like being sued for serving old women boiling cups of coffee or locking the fire exit doors.
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Steve, maybe not legal liability now but admitting it I would think could lead to something down the road, then it becomes ‘they have a history of’
As far as opening up a lawsuit who knows. Your idea and my idea in the policy/statement there is exactly what I was thinking. The room thing.
Also crafted apologies and crocodile tears are a thing here as well.
I found “the room thing” did more harm than good, really.
Like “oh we’re preventing this specific form of transphobia from recurring…..all good now?”
It doesn’t dispute it happened but also doesn’t indicate anything is being done to stop transphobic attitudes, just reducing one avenue they might manifest in.
I'm glad the union is recognized now.
I do hope and expect the safety and lifelyhood of workers at Paizo is improving, but that is a process that takes time, and I'm willing to give the Paizo management some time, to work out things with the union and the workers the union represents.
In the meantime, I reinstated some of my subscriptions, and ordered some PDFs. I will keep an eye on the forums and the UPW blog, to see what the union is achieving, and if Paizo is becoming the safe and welcoming workplace I hoped it would already be.
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This is what y’all wanted.
To be clear, this is what some/most people wanted. For some of us, it is just a first step and not enough to get us to suddenly start praising Paizo. Myself, TOZ, and many others have been volunteers for Paizo for many years and saw first-hand some of their really bad practices. We have also seen repeatedly, Paizo mgmt making public statements and apologizing and promising to do better. Sometimes those promises are virtually word for word, year after year. That is the reason why we are standing firm that until we see REAL change in the environment at Pazio, not just more lip-service, we are not going to return to normal.
Its not grandstanding. We haven't moved the goal posts. Our position has been consistent from the beginning. In fact for some their position predates recent events that caused this explosion of activity. My most recent posts were just a reminder to the community not to be too hasty throwing their money at Paizo like a reward as if they have suddenly won Employer of the Year.
I don't trust the process based on the processes history. I am waiting to see the results of this instance of the process.
This, so much this!
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Is this really true though?
Not really. While it certainly true there are a lot of high-profile suites and probably more frivolous ones than most would like to admit, the actual numbers (last time I bothered to look; its been a while) indicated the US is not a hot-bed of lawsuits.
However, one of the things we do seem to take very seriously in the US is employee mistreatment. Be it sexual harassment, discrimination, worker's compensation, etc. People tend to be very interested in pursuing those types of lawsuits since they can often lead to some of the highest individual rewards. Unfortunately, they tend to be some of the hardest to prosecute, so the success rate is not all that high.
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Good news and glad they recognized the union.
That aside I kind of agree with Poly in that no matter what Paizo does some here will never be satisfied.
The personal very demanding list starts with two points. Recognize the union and address the Transphobia. Once both are addressed then a third point and a fourth and a fifth until no matter what Paizo does again it will not be enough . A company can only do so much in a certain amount of time.
We will see if the fans truly put their money where their mouth is and Paizo sees an increase in sales. It’s easy to say they will buy more, rather than actually buying more we will see.
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Also: why is bad to not be satisfied? Of course I'm not satisfied. I won't be until all of their employees are safe to lead fulfilling lives not experiencing hate or harassment from their employers and the people responsible for that nonsense aren't in the picture anymore.
Why are you so easy to satisfy?
This is what y’all wanted.To be clear, this is what some/most people wanted. For some of us, it is just a first step and not enough to get us to suddenly start praising Paizo. Myself, TOZ, and many others have been volunteers for Paizo for many years and saw first-hand some of their really bad practices. We have also seen repeatedly, Paizo mgmt making public statements and apologizing and promising to do better. Sometimes those promises are virtually word for word, year after year. That is the reason why we are standing firm that until we see REAL change in the environment at Pazio, not just more lip-service, we are not going to return to normal.
Its not grandstanding. We haven't moved the goal posts. Our position has been consistent from the beginning. In fact for some their position predates recent events that caused this explosion of activity. My most recent posts were just a reminder to the community not to be too hasty throwing their money at Paizo like a reward as if they have suddenly won Employer of the Year.
I don't trust the process based on the processes history. I am waiting to see the results of this instance of the process.This, so much this!
Cosigned. All of it.
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I think that's what's most galling about the responses of Jones and Poly--those of us saying "this is a good step, but there's more to do" are clearly a minority, and we are just trying to acknowledge some nuance to ensure that it isn't lost in the excitement. I'm happy about this news, but I want our other concerns to be addressed, too. It's so innocuous and yet somehow we're still being accused of bad faith negativity for its own sake. It's incredibly insulting. I don't appreciate frivolous accusations of dishonest conduct.
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Congratulations, I will celebrate in the traditional manner for such a fantastic development.
Keep improving, cooperating, and most importantly, making awesome games you fantastic Golem.
It took them sometime to acknowledge the Union it will be the same for the Transphobia. Let’s give them the time. I’m satisfied with the Union even happier if they also do the first.
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It took them sometime to acknowledge the Union it will be the same for the Transphobia. Let’s give them the time. I’m satisfied with the Union even happier if they also do the first.
It took a week for the union. It's taken over a month for the transphobia. One of these is a longer period than the other, which is it?
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It took a week for the union. It's taken over a month for the transphobia. One of these is a longer period than the other, which is it?It took them sometime to acknowledge the Union it will be the same for the Transphobia. Let’s give them the time. I’m satisfied with the Union even happier if they also do the first.
Not everyone thinks those allegations have actual merit, and honestly, they are not the main reason why the Union was formed in the first place.
I have no problem with people pushing for more transparency and appealing for investigations into the situation and individuals in question but continually spamming every thread with the same pointed demands is frankly, inappropriate and disrespectful in my opinion. Obviously, there are plenty of users who are very much still concerned about all of that, but it's not really on-topic here and really does probably deserve its own dedicated thread. So, can you at least start a new thread to keep this discussion centralized to one place, please?
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Not everyone thinks those allegations have actual merit, and honestly, they are not the main reason why the Union was formed in the first place.It took a week for the union. It's taken over a month for the transphobia. One of these is a longer period than the other, which is it?It took them sometime to acknowledge the Union it will be the same for the Transphobia. Let’s give them the time. I’m satisfied with the Union even happier if they also do the first.
Actually, I don't think I've seen a single person suggest that Crystal wasn't telling the truth, aside from one now-banned poster who suggested all the ex-employees, freelancers and certain forum posters were all part of an elaborate conspiracy to destroy Paizo with political correctness. So yeah, I think everyone lucid agrees that Crystal's accounts have merit.
Those allegations are being brought up here specifically because people keep saying things like "you should be satisfied now because this is everything you wanted, go buy products". We are respectfully correcting that assumption, and expressing our hopes for what the union will help to address. Y'all are the ones turning it into an argument.
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I have no problem with people pushing for more transparency and appealing for investigations into the situation and individuals in question but continually spamming every thread with the same pointed demands is frankly, inappropriate and disrespectful in my opinion. Obviously, there are plenty of users who are very much still concerned about all of that, but it's not really on-topic here and really does probably deserve its own dedicated thread. So, can you at least start a new thread to keep this discussion centralized to one place, please?
I dunno. I happen to thank transphobia and discrimination are inappropriate and disrespectful. But, clearly, we have different values.
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It took a week for the union. It's taken over a month for the transphobia. One of these is a longer period than the other, which is it?It took them sometime to acknowledge the Union it will be the same for the Transphobia. Let’s give them the time. I’m satisfied with the Union even happier if they also do the first.
Not everyone thinks those allegations have actual merit, and honestly, they are not the main reason why the Union was formed in the first place.
I have no problem with people pushing for more transparency and appealing for investigations into the situation and individuals in question but continually spamming every thread with the same pointed demands is frankly, inappropriate and disrespectful in my opinion. Obviously, there are plenty of users who are very much still concerned about all of that, but it's not really on-topic here and really does probably deserve its own dedicated thread. So, can you at least start a new thread to keep this discussion centralized to one place, please?
The union actively disagrees with you that this is not a union issue.
