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A departure from my previous level 20 playtests, I stopped using the Arcane Dungeon flipmap (because I had repeat playtesters), and decided to standardise the encounters a bit more. I had two groups:
- Monk, Barbarian (Giant), Thauma (Weapon main, chalice, lantern), Thauma (Chalice main, weapon, lantern)
- Thauma (Amulet main, weapon, chalice), Barbarian (Animal), Psychic (Silent Whisper w/ Mental Scan from feat - decided to go int because we already knew Cha was better). There was a second psychic, but she only showed up for the final encounter - got confused on timezones, I weak adjusted the monsters.
Chargen Rules
Feel free to pick whatever you want, though try to push them as far as they can feasibly go mechanically.
- At least one person much play one of each of the new classes (the psychic for the first group dropped and got replaced with the monk last minute, so .
- If you pick the same class as someone else, pick a different subclass/different style.
- 240000GP to buy anything you want of 20th level or lower that has a price tag (all uncommon, rare and unique options allowed provided there is a price).
- For playtesting reasons I ask that you don't pick the following options as they will distort data - Pin to the Spot, Heaven's Thunder, Sixth Pillar Mastery (if playing Wild Druid), Bone Croupiers from Animate Dead, Scare to Death.
- Revive, Heal to full and remove all conditions after each encounter.
- Everyone starts with 3 hero points, none will be handed out.
Encounters
- 1 Maharaja + 4 Sumbreivas (Moderate, benchmark)
- 8 Demiaviggas (Weak adjusted for the second group) (Severe)
- 4 Star Archons, evilswapped (essentially exchange all good instances to evil and vice versa) (Severe)
- 1 Elder Wyrmwraith (Severe)
- 1 Ouroboros + 1 Elite Clockwork Amalgam (Severe, group 1 didn't fight this)
- 1 Elite Hekatonkhaires Titan (by request, group 1 also didn't fight this) (Extreme+)
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Group 1 breakdown
With no dedicated support character at all, level 20 was really really hard for them. They also didn't use Aid, which made the solo fights a lot harder than they needed to be. For this group I went with the ruling of Esoteric Antithesis applies to all foes of the same type.
Encounter 1 - 8 Demiaviggas
- Due to some focus fire on the chaliceturge, he nearly went down, but ultimately no one went down in this encounter.
- These monsters don't particularly do much as a straight up threat.
- Implement's Assault and Whirlwind Strike were used to some effect here to clean up the Demiaviggas, but it took a while with the quantity of HP that even mooks have at level 20.
- Ultimately, the above ruling helped the thaumas' econ quite a lot but didn't feel out of place for the party.
- Pretty convincing win for the party here, although neither of the thaumas really felt like they were doing anything thauma except ubiquitous antithesis.
- Also one thauma had a brilliant rune, which meant that their antithesis did nothing for them.
Encounter 2 - 4 Star Archons
- 3 Star Archons were at the top of the init order which meant the party got bombarded with Sunbursts, one thauma went permanently blind on round 1.
- With no healing or mitigation, this was a basically unwinnable fight, especially when all of them started exploding for 24d6 and no one had evasion.
- I agreed to not keep spamming them with AoE just so they could actually have a fight instead of a massacre, and ultimately they won after some very lucky dice rolls. Both thaumas went down and died.
Encounter 3 - Maharaja + 4 Sumbreivas
- Monk got mazed, needed a natural 16 to succeed, so was basically perma stuck.
- Barbarian got level 10 dominated.
- Party was forced to stay back due to prismatic wall.
- We basically called the encounter there, it was obvious they weren't going to win with no caster of their own.
Encounter 4 - Elder Wyrmwraith
- Again, with no caster or support of any kind, they needed a natural 13 to hit on their first attack (ectoplasmic form) or 16 (physical form).
- One thauma straight up died due to crit fail (bumped to fail) on consume souls, into crit fail on breath weapon. The thauma that died was the one with ubiquitous antithesis and crit failed his first FF check, died before he got a second.
- The rest got ground down over the remaining 9 rounds. The resist 25 all was basically impossible for them to punch through, and gaining 125 thp with each switch to real form didn't help.
We cut there due to time.
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Group 2 breakdown
For this group I used the ruling that Esoteric Antithesis applied to only the single creature, but no increased DC for using it on another of the same creature
This group was significantly more optimised build wise. Both the barbarian and the thauma had a pearlescent pyramid, the thauma had an absolute ton of scrolls (bought) with scroll thaumaturgy - no other scroll feats. She had already played the class at level 4 and level 11, hated it feeling too striker-y so tried to do something different.
Casting is obviously the most broken thing in the game at level 15+ so the scrolls did a lot of work.
Encounter 1 - 8 Demiaviggas
- The psychic didn't use a single amp in this encounter, or psyche. They felt they weren't worth the actions.
- The barbarian lead off with a terrifying roar which crit all of them, and the psychic followed up with slow 6 - 6/8 demiaviggas crit failed the save.
- Thauma was definitely struggling to do much in this encounter, but she really didn't need to. Once 6 demiaviggas were left with only 1 action per turn, it was a guaranteed victory.
- The psychic got close to dropping from some focus fire, but was healed up with soothe and chalice. With only 1 action per turn left, the Demiaviggas couldn't finish him.
Encounter 2 - 4 Star Archons
- The psychic used very few amps this fight (iirc, like 1 or 2) and didn't psyche.
- Still, this encounter was an overwhelming victory for the party. Paragon amulet implement, combined with everyone having energy aegis (9th) and sometimes even Shadow Siphon, cut a lot of the damage out of the AoEs. Everyone was still half or more health at the end of this encounter.
- Helped that one of the star archons crit failed against blindness, and the thauma mazed another one with a scroll (though they escaped quickly) but this wasn't necessary.
- Once all 4 sunbursts were burnt, and they knew the starchons exploded, they just took them out one by one making sure the thauma had amulet reaction to prevent most of the damage.
Encounter 3 - Maharaja + 4 Sumbreivas
- Have you ever seen an encounter get to round 5 and still barely anyone has taken damage? That was this fight. The Maharaja split the room with prismatic wall again, but due to being unable to thread it through a creature targetting was hard. The thauma used disappearance on herself, and the psychic invisibility (4) on himself, they snuck around the side to deal with the Maharaja while the barbarian kept the 4 sumbreivas distracted.
- Pretty sure the Psychic didn't amp or psyche this fight at all.
- Eventually, the thauma got next to the maharaja and used prismatic sphere. Was basically encounter over from there, the Thauma wins a 1v1 against a weak Maharaja while under the effects of disappearance and mind blank.
Encounter 4 - Elder Wyrmwraith
- This group really showed the power of support this encounter. I used the ruling that mental scan aids using spell attack roll - with +4 from aid, and +3 from heroism, the party showed why single enemy encounters are such a joke at high levels.
- The wyrmwraith got 2 turns before it died. Consume souls which only managed to do 90 + doomed 2 to the barbarian (death ward) and miracle to fetch divine aura.
- Having 2 pearlescent pyramids definitely helped, but also just giving +7 to hit was a gamechanger.
Encounter 5 - Ouroboros + Clockwork Amalgam
- The Ouroboros spent most of this combat mazed, the thaum had another maze scroll and the psychic had two slots to maze it with. With only +31 perception, it stayed in the shadow realm for most of the combat.
- Still, the clockwork amalgam tore through the barbarian and thaum quite handily, especially when the thaum/psych were distracted mazing the ouroboros.
- Psychic used a lot of amps this combat, forgot they had dual amp + shatter space, used them, shatter space did zero damage (amalgam succeeded, resist physical). Apparently some janky rules regarding how "start of turn" effects work means that the psychic is never at risk of actually damaging themselves with shatter space, as they choose the resolution of their own start of turn effects and can simply have shatter space expire before it deals damage.
- Message amp and mental scan did a lot of work in tearing down the amalgam.
- What ultimately cost them this combat was that the thaum FF'd the ouroboros and never switched to the amalgam (which would have added 20 damage to both the thaum and barbarian).
- I was ready to call the combat at some point for the players, the thaum said to keep going, and I rolled a string of 18+s that dropped both the thaum and barb. Nearly swallowed the Psychic on the same round (Disappearance kept him alive). The thaum and barb retreated (ouroboros couldn't exit the room) after being healed by the psychic, who mazed the ouroboros again, ending the encounter in a draw.
Encounter 6 - Elite Hekatonkhaires Titan (By request)
- I feel bad for the second psychic player, she made her whole character sheet and never got to take a single action, because this was the only combat she was present for.
- Not much to say - the Hundred Dimension Grasp ability is extremely dumb when combined with its +48 (+50 elite) natural athletics modifier. That ability should really have a cooldown, or cost more actions, or require seperate rolls for each creature, or all three of those.
- Fight went like this - Titan wins init, Grab (Party is paralyzed), Whirlwind (Deals ~140 to whole party). Party can't act. Grab (party is paralyzed), Whirlwind (Deals ~120 to whole party). Party can't act. Whirlwind (Deals ~120 damage to whole party). GG.
- There was some debate among the players whether they should prebuff (with disappearance, e.g.) and whether that would be realistic (there was two sides - one stating that an extreme+ encounter without warning would be quite rare, and the other side stating that it can warp in from anywhere with no notice). Ultimately I rolled a dice to determine if they could prebuff or not, and it came up not. Not sure if they would have won if they could prebuff.
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Conclusions
- While message amp and mental scan are good (and naturally scale well as their effects don't descale), ultimately, at high levels their power doesn't match that of what high level slots are capable of. Particularly, the Psychic's high level feat amps and psyches need to be better. The Psychic here just felt like a worse occult sorcerer with swashbuckler dedication. I'm not even going to make a bard comparison, as everything loses to bard, but the Psychic is definitely worse than a sorcerer. Ultimately the problem is that damage naturally descales in two ways - not only does enemy HP get higher, which means that any damage bonus is not making your thing better, merely making it keep up (and woe is you if it grows slowly such that you are actually losing relative power) but also mook hp gets higher relative to on level HP, which means that AoE damage just becomes less and less effective.
- Thaumas are very squishy, without support (self-support with scrolls inclusive) they fall over very easily for something that wants to frontline. The thauma in the second group used an air repeater (G&G weapon) with the ruling that Reload 0 on repeating weapons doesn't require a free hand and still fell over hard when she had any sort of focus fire put on her.
- Thauma player is mostly displeased with the state of the class, especially at higher levels. It feels too striker-y to her and she wants it to be more implement focused.
- Magic at high levels is what wins fights.
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Will update with the math breakdown by encounter when I review the logs
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Group 1 Encounter Math
Totals
Weaponturge
Hits: 14/25
Crits: 4
Damage Dealt: 657 (+179 antithesis) = 836
Ubiquitous Antithesis damage bonuses = 762
Hits taken: 6/17
Crits taken: 0
Damage Taken: 1,009
FF Successes: 3
FF Crit Fails: 1
Chaliceturge
Hits: 21/43
Crits: 9
Damage Dealt: 1,149 (+ 282 antithesis) = 1,431
Hits taken: 21/36
Crits taken: 6
Damage Taken: 1,803
FF Successes: 4
FF Crit Fails: 0
Monk
Hits: 22/54
Crits: 6
Damage Dealt: 1,259
Hits taken: 16/25
Crits taken: 6
Damage Taken: 961
Barbarian
Hits: 20/42
Crits: 5
Damage Dealt: 1,331
Hits taken: 12/14
Crits taken: 0
Damage Taken: 926
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Encounter 1 (Weakness was 15 so can multiply this out by number of hits allies get to work out how much ubiquitous antithesis added)
Weaponturge (Damage dealt is without antithesis, but enemy also had resist phys except silver which cancelled out antithesis)
Hits: 10/17
Crits: 2
Damage Dealt: 54 + 45 + 43 + 92 + 48 + 37 + 45 + 45 = 409
Hits taken: 3/14
Crits taken
Damage Taken: 48 (Divine Wrath) + 30 + 36 + 36 + 44 + 100 = 294
FF Successes: 1
FF Crit Fails
Chaliceturge
Hits: 9/9
Crits: 6
Damage Dealt: 68+62+37+62+68+40+80+88+21 (Tyrant reaction)+39 = 565
Hits taken: 13/29
Crits taken: 3
Damage Taken: 29+62+38+31+28+30+36+82+24+26+37+38+46 = 507
FF Successes: 1
FF Crit Fails
Monk (Monk damage is not reduced by resist except silver, ubiquitous antithesis damage not added)
Hits: 7/8
Crits: 4
Damage Dealt: 89+104+104+30+87+36+48+14 (Grab damage) = 512
Hits taken: 3/7
Crits taken
Damage Taken: 37 + 36 + 27 = 100
Barbarian
Hits: 6/12
Crits
Damage Dealt: 56+56+56+49+51+49 = 317
Hits taken
Crits taken
Damage Taken
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Encounter 2 - Enemy has weakness 15 good
Weaponturge
Hits: 1/4 (Thauma was blind before their first turn)
Crits:
Damage Dealt: 43
Hits taken: 2/2
Crits taken
Damage Taken: 54 (Sunburst) + 84 (Sunburst) + 71 (Sunburst) + 49 (Explosive Rebirth) + 42 + 22 (Explosive Rebirth) + 36 = 358
FF Successes: 1
FF Crit Fails
Chaliceturge (Note: Chaliceturge is a Dhampir hence why they're taking double the damage from Sunburst)
Hits: 1/2
Crits:
Damage Dealt: 30
Hits taken: 2/2
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 108 (Sunburst) + 168 (Sunburst) + 144 (Sunburst) + 49 (Explosive Rebirth) + 75 (Implosion) + 35 (Note: Pact of the Final Breath is what is keeping the Chaliceturge up here) = 579
FF Successes: 1
FF Crit Fails
Monk (Monk damage is not reduced by resist except silver, ubiquitous antithesis damage not added)
Hits: 13/22
Crits: 2
Damage Dealt: 46+47+95+51+42+45+37+44+91+14 (grab damage)+32+35+33+32 = 644
Hits taken: 7/10
Crits taken: 3
Damage Taken: 77+45+82+47+38+84+38+42 (Explosive Rebirth) = 453
Barbarian
Hits: 10/15
Crits: 5
Damage Dealt: 93+47+46+129+55+103+49+53+119+122 = 816
Hits taken: 6/8
Crits taken
Damage Taken: 42+48+46+36+38+43+28 (Sunburst)+21 (Explosive Rebirth)+81 (Explosive Rebirth) = 383
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Encounter 3 - The only enemies that were attacked (Sumbrievas) have no weakness, so custom 12 is applied.
Weaponturge
Hits: 2/2
Crits: 2
Damage Dealt: 68 + 100 = 168
Hits taken: 1/1
Crits taken
Damage Taken: 57 (Weird) + 24 = 81
FF Successes: 1
FF Crit Fails
Chaliceturge
Hits: 5/5
Crits: 3
Damage Dealt: 44 + 76 + 88 + 70 + 38 = 316
Hits taken:
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 110 (Prismatic Wall)
FF Successes: 1
FF Crit Fails
Monk (Mazed the entire fight)
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt:
Hits taken:
Crits taken
Damage Taken:
Barbarian
Hits: 1/3
Crits
Damage Dealt: 44
Hits taken: 2/2
Crits taken
Damage Taken: 57 (weird) + 25 + 26 = 108
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Encounter 4 - Enemy has no weakness, custom is applied
Weaponturge
Hits: 1/2
Crits:
Damage Dealt: 37
Hits taken:
Crits taken
Damage Taken: 100 (Consume Souls) + 176 (Breath weapon) = 276
FF Successes:
FF Crit Fails: 1
Chaliceturge
Hits: 6/27
Crits:
Damage Dealt: 33+42+41+32+38+20 (Tyrant)+32 = 238
Hits taken: 5/5
Crits taken: 3
Damage Taken: 52 (Miracle) + 35 + 44 + 94 + 90 + 86 = 401
FF Successes: 1
FF Crit Fails
Monk
Hits: 2/24
Crits:
Damage Dealt: 46 + 23 (Grab damage) + 34 = 103
Hits taken: 6/8
Crits taken: 3
Damage Taken: 50 (Consume Souls) + 59 + 36 + 78 + 70 + 41 + 74 = 408
Barbarian
Hits: 3/12
Crits
Damage Dealt: 55+57+42 = 154
Hits taken: 4/4
Crits taken
Damage Taken: 100 (Consume Souls) + 58 + 49 + 36 + 40 + 52 (Miracle) + 100 (Consume Souls) = 435
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Group 2 Encounter Math
Note: Barbarian numbers may be misleading, Barbarian was the target for most, if not all, Message amps, Heroisms and Mental Scans.
Totals
Amuletturge
Hits: 16/19
Crits: 4
Damage Dealt: 615 (+ Antithesis of 201) = 816
Ubiquitous Antithesis bonus: 282
Hits taken: 9/10
Crits taken: 3
Damage Taken: 788
FF Successes: 7
FF Fails: 1
FF Crit Fails:
Psychic
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt: 382
Hits taken: 11/30
Crits taken: 2
Damage Taken: 692
Amps used: 12
Psi Cantrips used: 11
Barbarian
Hits: 20/22
Crits: 14
Damage Dealt: 1,731
Hits taken: 19/55
Crits taken: 7
Damage Taken: 1,233
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Encounter 1 (Note, encounter was called early due to inability of enemies to reasonably win)
Amuletturge
Hits: 3/5
Crits: 1
Damage Dealt: 34+35+38 = 107
Hits taken:
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 24 (Divine Decree) + 35 (Divine Decree) = 59
FF Successes: 3
FF Fails:
FF Crit Fails:
Psychic
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt:
Hits taken: 6/20
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 31 + 24 (Divine Decree) + 29 + 30 + 38 + 17 (Divine Decree) + 31 + 33 = 233
Psi Cantrips used: 2
Amps used: 2
Psyche used?
Barbarian
Hits: 5/5
Crits: 2
Damage Dealt: 50+55+116+146+44 (Vicious Evisceration) = 411
Hits taken:
Crits taken:
Damage Taken:
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Encounter 2 - You're not seeing explosive rebirth or sunburst because most of the time it got reduced to zero damage by passed save + amulet.
Amuletturge
Hits: 8/9
Crits: 2
Damage Dealt: 36+32+54+56+36+22+32+30 = 298
Hits taken:
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 6 (Sunburst) + 37 (Implosion) + 40 (Explosive Rebirth) = 83
FF Successes: 3
FF Fails:
FF Crit Fails:
Psychic
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt: 36 (Magic Missile)
Hits taken: 0/1
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 6 (Sunburst) + 53 (Implosion) + 37 (Implosion) = 96
Psi Cantrips used: 1
Amps used: 1
Psyche used? Yes - Focused Intent
Barbarian
Hits: 7/7
Crits: 6
Damage Dealt: 64+90+106+86+59+96+110 = 611
Hits taken: 2/6
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 6 (Sunburst) + 26 + 35 + 31 (Explosive Rebirth) = 98
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Encounter 3
Amuletturge- Yes the thauma did no damage, fight was called the moment she cast Prismatic Sphere trapping her (with Mind Blank + Disappearance) with the Maharaja.
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt:
Hits taken:
Crits taken:
Damage Taken:
FF Successes:
FF Fails:
FF Crit Fails:
Psychic
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt: (19x3+15x3+15x3+15x2+15x2=) 207 (Tempest of Shades)
Hits taken: 1/1
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 21
Psi Cantrips used: 1
Amps used: 1
Psyche used? Yes - Focused Intent
Barbarian
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt:
Hits taken: 4/34
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 26+21+23(Shadow Blast)+19+25 = 114
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Encounter 4
Amuletturge
Hits: 3/3
Crits: 1
Damage Dealt: 35+37+66 = 138
Hits taken:
Crits taken:
Damage Taken:
FF Successes:
FF Fails: 1
FF Crit Fails:
Psychic
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt: 11 (Manifold Missiles) + 19 (Manifold Missiles) + 63 (Spirit Blast) = 93
Hits taken:
Crits taken:
Damage Taken:
Psi Cantrips used: 1
Amps used: 1
Psyche used?
Barbarian
Hits: 2/2
Crits: 1
Damage Dealt: 146 (Vicious Evisceration) + 55 = 201
Hits taken:
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 78 (Consume Souls)
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Encounter 5
Amuletturge
Hits: 2/2
Crits:
Damage Dealt: 35+37 = 72
Hits taken: 6/7
Crits taken: 1
Damage Taken: 56+35+74+36+35+88 = 324
FF Successes: 1
FF Fails:
FF Crit Fails:
Psychic
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt: 0 (Shatter Space) + 15 (Manifold Missiles) + 15 (Manifold Missiles) + 16 (Manifold Missiles) = 46
Hits taken: 2/6 (Disappearance helped a lot here)
Crits taken:
Damage Taken: 38+42 = 80
Psi Cantrips used: 6
Amps used: 5
Psyche used? Yes - Focused Intent
Barbarian
Hits: 6/8
Crits: 5
Damage Dealt: 108+108+94+34+54+110 = 508
Hits taken: 10/12
Crits taken: 4
Damage Taken: 56+30+74+34+41+100+24+51+120+31 = 561
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Encounter 6 - Party was paralyzed the whole time. At least they scanned it and found out its weakest save is will.
Amuletturge
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt:
Hits taken: 3/3
Crits taken: 2
Damage Taken: 140 + 122 + 60 = 322
FF Successes:
FF Fails:
FF Crit Fails:
Psychic
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt:
Hits taken: 2/2
Crits taken: 2
Damage Taken: 140 + 122 = 262
Psi Cantrips used: 1
Amps used: 1
Psyche used?
Barbarian
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt:
Hits taken: 3/3
Crits taken: 3
Damage Taken: 140 + 122 + 120 = 382
Psychic 2
Hits:
Crits:
Damage Dealt:
Hits taken: 2/2
Crits taken: 2
Damage Taken: 140 + 122 = 262
Psi Cantrips used:
Amps used:
Psyche used?
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One of the Thaumaturge players from the first playtest here. I had played with a Whip, Paragon Weapon Implement, and initial Amulet and Chalice implements.
My experience has been that I was indeed quite squishy for a class so heavily encouraged to front-line (can't use Bows, only one-handed ranged weapon which at best only work if you take Weapon Implements). I had died quickly in 2 of the 3 fights that were not immediately decided by the Maze and Prismatic Wall.
It certainly did not help that I basically no defensive measures to protect myself, either, like the Rogue's Mobility or Monk's action compression, etc.
Additionally, I had felt like ruling that the reaction Implements worked on all creatures of the same type was paramount.
I believe the reaction Implements (Amulet & Weapon) would suffer greatly if they were to only be usable against a single target at a time.
Having an Attack of Opportunity or a semi-Champion's reaction against only one creature at a time would not have felt good at all due to how limited it would have been. This was especially true with how quickly my Esoteric Antithesis targets often fell in battles with many opponents.
Thus, these are my main insights from the playtest:
1. Increase Thaumaturges HP to 10 per level rather than 8.
2. Let Esoteric Antithesis and its effects (such as the extra damage and Implement reactions) work versus all creatures of the type you targeted with it.
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Couple of other pain points I wanted to mention
- Psyche trigger activations: Focused Intent was easy because on VTT you can just see the round counter. The psychic tried to use Calculated Reasoning once and we had to tell him that he didn’t meet the requirement for it. It’s definitely something that can get awkward to track, especially if you have multiple psyches you might be looking to activate like (presumably) the feats want you to.
- Thaumaturge reactions being limited to a single target under the ruling that EA only applies to one target also felt a bit painful. Plenty of times the thauma wanted to use either reaction but the target of her EA missed (and was the only one to do so). By contrast, the other two thaumas in the first playtest felt a bit better reaction wise, able to use them consistently enough in multi enemy combats.
- Thauma scroll and talisman feats just didn’t feel worth taking at this high of a level. Being a one shot with all your money available up front certainly distorts things in that regard, but even still, the rather limited level of the items available (especially with talismans which are level/2) makes it trivial to just buy these things for money instead of using class feats (a commodity you can’t buy) for a tiny amount per day. If these are supposed to be feats that make the thaumaturge stand out, they could at least give a higher level of item relative to the archetypes that do the same thing