Trying my hand at making a character who's at least passable at melee combat while able to field an army of undead:
LE human warpriest (urgathoa?)
STR > WIS > CON 14 > INT 13 > DEX > CHA
TRAITS
-gifted adept (animate dead) [magic]
-fate's favored [faith]
FEATS - l is level, r is racial/fcb, c is class
1 - spell focus (necromancy)(l), varisian tattoo (necromancy)(r), weapon focus (???)(c)
2 -
3 - gtr spell focus (necromancy)(l), power attack(c)
4 -
5 - experimental caster (undeath wordspell)(l)
6 - weapon specialization (???)(c), lunge(r)
7 - spell specialization (animate dead)(l)
8 -
9 - tenebrous spell(l), improved critical (???)(c)
10 -
11 - extend spell(l)
12 - gtr weapon focus (???)(c), gtr weapon specialization (???)(r)
13 - bouncing spell(l)
14 -
15 - spell perfection (animate dead)(l), critical versatility(c)
16 -
17 - undead master*(l)
18 - ???(c), ???(r)
19 - ???(l)
20 -
-orange prism ioun stone
-circlet of the moon
-string of prayer breads (standard), for bead of karma
-salt (reagent)
-lesser metamagic rod (threnodic spell) - unrelated to CL boosting, but helpful for buffing undead minions
[UNDEAD BUCKETS] (casting at night, during full moon, with death knell and desecrate spells active)
animate dead - CL 42 (20 level, ([+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +2 spec, +1 tenebrous]*2) +12 feat, +1 trait, +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 ioun, +4 bead, +2 circlet)
HD: ANIMATE 200 (([42 CL, +8 feat]*2 HD)*2 desecrate) | CONTROL 168 (42 CL *4)
undeath wordspell - CL 33 (20 level, (+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +1 tenebrous) +4 feat, +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 ioun, +4 bead, +2 circlet)
HD: ANIMATE 66 | CONTROL 132
example army:
animate dead (168HD)
-<FILLER> / 16 bloody skeleton hill giants (10HD ea) and 2 bloody skeleton panthers (4HD ea)
undeath wordspell (132HD)
-fast zombie roc (16HD)
-fast zombie purple worm (16HD)
-<FILLER> / 10 bloody skeleton hill giants (10HD ea)
filler undead can include things like:
-bloody skeleton ogre (4HD): bargain bin beater. proficient in greatclubs, javelins, and medium armor, so with a bit of gear investment they can last you long into your career.
-bloody skeleton troll (6HD): a tanky alternative beater, trolls have regeneration (which is a part of their HP, *not* a defensive ability), which pairs well with bloody skeleton's fast healing ability. no weapon/armor proficiencies tho.
-bloody skeleton hill giant (10HD): the gold standard. a solid beater monster that bumps right up against the HD limit. proficient in greatclubs and medium armor so they can take whatever equipment your ogres used.
-bloody skeleton [BIG CAT] (3-6HD): tigers, leopards, lions, and so on. lots of natural attacks and grab. grappled is a pretty good debuff, especially for free.
-bloody skeleton or relentless zombie dragon (usually juvenile): very rare but has all the benefits of the hill giant and the big cat combined. juvenile black dragon is perfect HD for the bloody skeleton limit. bloody skeleton is less likely to be destroyed, but relentless zombie keeps it's fly speed/gets and extra full-attack/climb speed of 35ft/+2 bonus HD.
-fast zombie [mount] (HD varies): increased land speed, additional attack on a full-attack, and never tires! what's not to love.
though if there's money to spare you can deck out your undead with armor/barding and any weapons they had proficiency with (anything listed in their bestiary entry/statblock). even unenchanted gear can give some serious bulk to your forces. though if you can get an armor/barding down to 0 armor check penalty (such as a mwk studded leather set, or mithral etc) you can have them equip it at no penalty even if not proficient.
gets undeath wordspell at 5th to start the army properly, animate dead at 7th, and snowballs from there to a solid ~300HD of undead at level 20. could potentially get experimental caster at 4th at the earliest, but unsure how to do so short of retraining a CL-boosting feat. also has some gnarly necromancy spell DCs as a byproduct (ghoul touch, bestow curse, etc etc).
sadly i don't know how to get command undead spell over to the cleric list to snag that extra pool of undead.
unsure on what weapon would give the most bang for my buck (scythe is thematic and scary on crits, but it doesn't gotta be your deity's weapon).
for alternative classes i'd considered antipaladin, but it gets animate dead too slowly (10th level).
cleric doesn't really get enough feats to cover both sides, even if it does get higher-end spellcasting.
i've heard about occultist (vanilla or necro-) and spiritualist (phantom blade?), but i'm an oldie who hasn't taken much time to even look at the occult stuff to judge properly.
considering arsenal chaplain archetype for the weapon training+dueling gloves bonuses for more melee stonks, but that would remove any blessing versatility (war only) and channel energy stuff (command undead feat is pretty bad but still an option for max army size i suppose)
not sure if i'm forgetting anything super important for the melee or necromancer sides off the top of my head (some domains have helpful powers but unsure on how to tack those on).
any suggestions to squeeze a bit more out of this--or corrections if i got my CL math wrong?
Wordcasting is one of those things you can't assume in an arbitrary campaign. Also IMO assuming that you can use the advantages of the warpriests' bonus feats class feature with the racial FCB while starting to take the racial FCB before you get that class feature is questionable. One or the other IMO.
On other options - crusader cleric isn't that good in melee, but occultist is a possibility. Avoid necroccultist, it adds nothing; vanilla or haunt collector, but most importantly go for the mage's paraphernalia panoply. It can give you the command undead spell.
Wordcasting is one of those things you can't assume in an arbitrary campaign. Also IMO assuming that you can use the advantages of the warpriests' bonus feats class feature with the racial FCB while starting to take the racial FCB before you get that class feature is questionable. One or the other IMO.
On other options - crusader cleric isn't that good in melee, but occultist is a possibility. Avoid necroccultist, it adds nothing; vanilla or haunt collector, but most importantly go for the mage's paraphernalia panoply. It can give you the command undead spell.
Most importantly, the Occultist can do it's undead shtick from level 1. It gets a happy expendable scaling skeleton or zombie.
upon some more searching: deific obedience (urgathoa) adds another +1CL for necromancy spells, as well as some nifty daily powers/SLAs, which is both helpful and thematically appropriate!
@avr: fair on wordcasting, though this is theorycrafting territory. on the FCB it's been run both ways at different tables for me, but worst case i could bump those feats back a few more levels and drop critical versatility (since that'd have the fcb go 9/15/21).
@scavion (and avr): i'll have to give occultist a more in-depth look later, it does sound like it could be a smoother experience from start.
I would personally argue that the Mage's Paraphernalia is not really worth it. Command Undead isn't particularly amazing or necessary and it's the only thing you "gain" from it. I could be wrong, but at first glance that seems to be all it does. That does mean you won't be seizing control of enemy undead...but realistically how often do you fight other necromancers as necromancers?
Now the Occultist is an excellent melee necromancer because it has 3/4ths BAB, but it can also get Full BAB if you go with the Trappings of the Warrior Panoply. The Transmutation and Abjuration implements also help save you money on various items of the Big 6.
All in all, Occultist is just very efficient.
tmk you can use command undead (spell) to scoop up any uncontrolled undead released from previous animate dead castings when you go over your limit
on the FCB it's been run both ways at different tables for me, but worst case i could bump those feats back a few more levels and drop critical versatility (since that'd have the fcb go 9/15/21).
Just to clarify, if you can't take the +1/6 Bonus Feat FCB until you actually have the bonus feats then the levels you get them would be 8/14/20 .
I think I've seen one of the devs clarify that you can take them earlier, but you can't actually get the full +1 until you get to a level with the class feature, which means you could start taking the FCB from level 1. However I can't remember where I saw it, and even if I could I'm pretty sure it was a Dev's opinion, not a rules clarification. So it's not necessarily RAW anyway. Regardless, avr is right that it's something to check with your GM first.
Now I'll echo what the others have said that the Occultist would be great at this.
The only thing I'll say differently is that you really don't need the Trappings Of The Warrior panoply - an Occultist with a Transmutation Implement is more than strong enough. Is Trappings powerful? Absolutely, but you'll be more than strong enough without it. I'm playing a 14 STR Occultist with only 1 combat feat as the only front-line character and I haven't felt underpowered at all. Oh and I don't have Trappings.
If you want to be a melee beast then by all means go for it, but don't feel like you have to shoehorn Trappings into your build to be good at melee combat.
@mrcharisma: noted, sliding those feats to 8/14/20 to be on the safe side.
as for the rest of that, those sure are some words youre speaking, which i assume are in english (and another vote for occultist).
FCB = Favoured Class Bonus
Dev = developer
RAW = Rules As Written
Implement = OCCULTIST IMPLEMENTS,
Panoply = A specific type of Implement with more rules about how they're chosen
Trappings = TRAPPINGS OF THE WARRIOR
STR = Strength
GM = Game Master
I think that's everything that could easily be misunderstood =P
FCB = Favoured Class Bonus
Dev = developer
RAW = Rules As Written
Implement = OCCULTIST IMPLEMENTS,
Panoply = A specific type of Implement with more rules about how they're chosen
Trappings = TRAPPINGS OF THE WARRIOR
STR = Strength
GM = Game MasterI think that's everything that could easily be misunderstood =P
it was the implements and panoply discussion by name that was throwing me, i understood the fcb part. solid breakdown tho!
some build updates with additional findings:
LE human warpriest (urgathoa - death/evil/magic/strength/war, grants ghoul touch as a 2nd-level spell)
traits
-gifted adept (animate dead) [magic]
-fate's favored [faith]
feats
1 - spell focus (necromancy)(l), varisian tattoo (necromancy)(r), weapon focus (???)
2 -
3 - gtr spell focus (necromancy)(l), power attack/furious focus(c)
4 -
5 - experimental caster (undeath wordspell)(l)
6 - lunge(c)
7 - spell specialization (animate dead)(l)
8 - weapon specialization (???)(fcb)
9 - tenebrous spell(l), improved critical (???)(c)
10 -
11 - extend spell(l)
12 - gtr weapon focus (???)(c)
13 - bouncing spell(l)
14 - gtr weapon specialization (???)(fcb)
15 - spell perfection (animate dead)(l), critical versatility(c)
16 -
17 - deific obedience (urgathoa)(l)
18 - ???(c)
19 - ???(l)
20 - ???(fcb)
-orange prism ioun stone
-circlet of the moon
-string of prayer breads (standard), for bead of karma
-salt (reagent)
-healing potions (for bloodwine spell)
[UNDEAD BUCKETS] (casting at night, during full moon, with death knell, desecrate, and bloodwine spells active)
animate dead - CL 45 (20 level, +14 feat([+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +2 spec, +1 obedience, +1 tenebrous]*2), +1 trait, +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 bloodwine, +1 ioun, +4 bead, +2 circlet)
HD: ANIMATE 180 (([45 CL]*2 HD)*2 desecrate) | CONTROL 180 (45 CL *4)
undeath wordspell - CL 35 (20 level, +5 feat(+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +1 obedience, +1 tenebrous), +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 bloodwine, +1 ioun, +4 bead, +2 circlet)
HD: ANIMATE 70 | CONTROL 140
main alterations are shifting feat levels around, dropping undead master for deific obedience (urgathoa, since it adds +1 necromancy CL with an easy ritual, as well as granting some nice SLAs and secondary abilities as you level up), and the use of the 'bloodwine' spell.
i'm considering spending that last non-combat feat on spell perfection (undeath wordspell) for another +5CL/20HD to it's bucket, but im not sure if you CAN spell perfection a wordspell off the top of my head.
i'm also separately looking at the occultist, since transmutation+necromancy handles a lot of the heavy lifting just by themselves--though i'm not much interested in spell circles, those can be traded away via archetypes no problem.
the way the necromancy implement resonance is worded it sounds like it would apply to both animate dead and the undeath wordspell, though the class appears to miss out on command undead entirely (barring the arcane inspiration from the mage's paraphernalia panoply, which would take an age to get and at the cost of your first four implement choices, which'd miss out on transmutation--the panoply powers are pretty good, like 'spell power')
if campaign traits are allowed, i'd consider swapping fate's favored for outlander (missionary), selecting animate dead--and possibly undeath wordspell if you've got a very lenient DM--or swapping gifted adept out if they can't stack (i dont recall what trait CL bonuses are typed as, and if they can even stack at all) since it gives a skill bonus, animate dead CL, and bumps two more spells of choice.
the lore seeker version's a great choice for arcane necromancers it seems, since you can pick animate dead and command undead to bump both.
also necrocraft minions seems like a great way to pad out the army if you cant just casually get ahold of giants or dragons for whatever reason. just raid a mausoleum and make your own!
...i wonder if the "mostly skeletons"/"-zombies" construction parts allow it to qualify for templates... because a huge-sized (10HD) bloody skeleton necrocraft with 3 construction points to spare seems mildly interesting.
(ignore furious focus mentioned at level 3, i dont know what that's doing there and the post is too old to edit it out)
alright, a rudimentary occultist has been tossed together:
NE elf or half-elf occultist (battle host)
int>str>con 14>dex=wis>cha
fcb (elf) for +10 max mental focus points (and +20hp from multitalented if HE) - not sure on alt. racial traits.
-gifted adept (animate dead)
-???
feats: L = level, C = class
1 - varisian tattoo (necro)(l)
2 -
3 - spell focus (necro)(l)
4 - weapon focus (???)(c)
5 - tenebrous spell(l)
6 -
7 - experimental caster (undeath wordspell)(l)
8 - power attack(c)
9 - spell specialization(animate dead)(l)
10 -
11 - extend spell(l)
12 - lunge(c)
13 - bouncing spell(l)
14 -
15 - spell perfection (animate dead)(l)
16 - improved critical(c)
17 - gtr spell focus (necro)(l)
18 -
19 - celestial obedience (urgathoa)(l)
20 -
1 - mind fear (nec base), necromantic servant (nec)
2 - legacy weapon (tra base)
3 - size alteration (tra) or soulbound puppet/spirit shroud (nec)
5 - quickness (tra)
6 - sudden insight (div base)
7 - mind over gravity (tra)
9 - mind eye (div) or danger sight (div)
10 - energy ray (evo base)
11 - <FILLER> (nec/tra/div/evo) - whatever options you didnt choose earlier
13 - <FILLER> (nec/tra/div/evo) - whatever options you didnt choose earlier
14 - arcane inspiration (pan base)
15 - spell power (pan)
17 - metamagic master (pan)
18 - mind barrier (abj base)
19 - aegis (nec/tra/div/evo/pan/abj)
focus points: 40 (+4 necro, assuming +10 int bonus at lv20))
implements: [NEC]romancy(1)/[TRA]nsmutation(2)/[DIV]ination(6)/[EVO]cation(10)/mage's paraphernalia [PAN]oply(14)/[ABJ]uration(18)
mastery: necromancy
FP can be divvied up among your implements as you like, unless it's the day of [THE RITUAL] listed below.
order of implement acquisition could be shuffled (and i'd love to get abjuration earlier), but the objective is to get mage's paraphernalia asap while still having transmutation implment (since it's so insane for combat builds). currently it lines up so that you get both spell power focus power and spell perfection (animate dead) at level 15.
.
casting relevant spells at night, during full moon, with death knell, desecrate, and bloodwine spells active.
FP spread (40/40+4) - 36+4 necro, 2 transmutation, 1 divination, 1 evocation (spending points from necro for panoply focus powers)
items include:
-voidstick or scrolls of desecrate + "reliquary" weapon enhancement (+250g)
-orange prism ioun stone
-circlet of the moon
-salt (reagent)
-scrolls of death knell
-scrolls of bloodwine
-healing potions (for bloodwine spell)
undead buckets:
animate dead - CL 43 (20 level, +14 feat([+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +2 spec, +1 obedience, +1 tenebrous]*2), +1 trait, +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 bloodwine, +1 ioun, +2 spell power, +2 circlet)
HD: ANIMATE 252 (([43 CL]*2 HD)*2 desecrate, +80 necromantic focus) | CONTROL 252 (43 CL *4, +80 necromantic focus)
undeath wordspell - CL 33 (20 level, +5 feat(+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +1 obedience, +1 tenebrous), +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 bloodwine, +1 ioun, +2 spell power, +2 circlet)
HD: ANIMATE 146 ([33 CL]*2 HD, +80 necromantic focus) | CONTROL 212 (33 CL *4, +80 necromantic focus)
[b]extended tenebrous command undead[b] (4 FP, via arcane inspiration power) - CL 33 (20 level, +5 feat(+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +1 obedience, +1 tenebrous), +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 bloodwine, +1 ioun, +2 spell power, +2 circlet)
CONTROL 1 creature | DURATION 66 days (refreshed every full moon, extra duration is in case theres an eclipse or something and you have to skip a month)
.
464 HD of controlled undead--+1 commanded undead and +1 necromantic servant (and optional familiar)--seems pretty adequate for a non-multiclass character.
you get an undead minion at 1, pop off with the army at 7 with both spells (since you're not a divine caster--though reliquarian IS an option, so could move experimental caster to 5th in that case), and spell perfection and spell power at 15 for serious CL pumping a massive army.
Necromantic focus seems pretty gnarly when you have enough points to dump into it, though you only really need to dump all your points into it when you're performing [THE RITUAL], and can adventure/fight as normal every other day.
honestly you could ignore battle host and go with another archetype (panoply savant? gives more FP, which is useful) or even vanilla if you wanted more focus on other things, since as MrCharisma has pointed out, transmutation implement does a ton of heavy lifting by itself already.
with soem implement shuffling you could potentially go vanilla occultist (or panoply savant) and use that extra implement for trappings of the warrior panoply on top of the existing choices to arguably be a better frontliner than the current setup?
edits: formatting
kinda wish i could remove [warpriest] from the thread title at this point, since as folks have noted, there's a fair several options for a melee necromancer.