On Pacts

[OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0]

I’m not a fan of the level difference in the Pacts - it feels like a gamist simulation that causes the level of power to be verisimilitudinously discordant - first your Fey pact, then your Devil pact, and then your Psychopomp pact. Why is the Fey pact low level, or the Psychopomp high? Because of the relative game effects power - but the level step makes no narrative sense and does a disservice to all the Pact-conversant powers - not sure the Fey are happy about being so lowly.

I feel hopeful that this playtest version is a showcase, and that we could see more suite-style Lesser/Greater/Most Meta for each power/group.. so that at your first option (which I would rather see at Level 1 or if it must be, 2 - so that those leaning more into Pactcraft can do so from inception) can be whichever Power you want narratively instead of whichever effect you want, though I understand that is entirely up to players as to how they choose to “build” their Thaumaturge.

I would obviously like to see Pacts expanded quite a lot, and I do like the idea of having multiple Pacts with multiple powers, and especially like the narrative consequences of mutually opposed Pacts and the knowledge thereof. I could even see crossed-Pact consequences akin to Oracle’s curses or even simple skill penalties with regard to opposed groups…or, on the flipside, hybrid-Pact effects that come with unusual bonuses AND penalties…

In essence, I can see that FF/EA as one stream, Implements as another, and Pacts as a misbegotten outlier that is thrown in as an afterthought. Currently. They deserve more. Well not really. They don’t deserve anything, but it could be interesting. :)

[QuidEst]

Narratively, the fey often do make pacts with people who don't have a lot of power. There's some fey willing to bargain with just about anybody. Why? Because it's interesting, an amusement. Devils have rigid structure, and sliding scales based on your worth, so the feat is just where it's interesting. Psychopomps aren't going to take notice of you until you're pretty powerful. It's nothing against you; they're just more concerned with the souls of the deceased.

Plus, if you told me that there was a pact to change your appearance, a pact to grant you fortune, and a pact to extend your life and prevent you from dying, yeah, I'd expect those to be different levels. There's no way those should be the same level.

I like having tailored pacts, instead of a generic one that you slap a patron on with no mechanical ties.

[OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0]

QuidEst wrote:

Narratively, the fey often do make pacts with people who don't have a lot of power. There's some fey willing to bargain with just about anybody. Why? Because it's interesting, an amusement. Devils have rigid structure, and sliding scales based on your worth, so the feat is just where it's interesting. Psychopomps aren't going to take notice of you until you're pretty powerful. It's nothing against you; they're just more concerned with the souls of the deceased.

Sure. But hopefully there will be more sources, and at other levels. And just because Fey can make a Pact with a lowly urchin doesn’t mean they won’t with a powerful hero. Or that the psychopomps won’t find the humble cobbler to truck with because they are a Chosen one of some kind. But you’re reasoning makes sense for the rules.

QuidEst wrote:

Plus, if you told me that there was a pact to change your appearance, a pact to grant you fortune, and a pact to extend your life and prevent you from dying, yeah, I'd expect those to be different levels. There's no way those should be the same level.

No, they shouldn’t. But they aren’t the *only* Pacts these groups make. It’s a little strange to have exactly the Pacts at exactly the level of power *only*. Again, as I said in the OP, this is just the Playtest’s presentation.

QuidEst wrote:

I like having tailored pacts, instead of a generic one that you slap a patron on with no mechanical ties.

I’m not sure I would like that either. I want the Patron to be meaningful and narratively powered, and provide thematic Pact powers. I’m arguing for the opposite of “choose awesome power, whack on a favorite Patron for funzies”.

The Pact-givers drive the theme of the Pacts - the Fey have a broad range of Powers, as do the fiends and the psychopomps, and the undead, and the Dark Tapestry etc…so I can definitely see multiple Pacts at a range of level per group. The fey aren’t only interested in helping you change your appearance any more than the devils stop at enriching you.

[GM OfAnything]

So the solution seems to just rename the feats to be more specific about their benefits. That way you can have more than one Pact offered by fey entities.

[Golurkcanfly]

Alternatively, make more Contract magic items and have those feats reference the items.

Like the first feat lets you access contracts more easily, the second feat lets you negate/lessen the downsides, and the third feat lets you break the contracts in new ways.

[Jedi Maester]

I don't particularly see why this class is more unique than others for making deals with outer planar creatures. So I'd prefer to remove the feats altogether and make each one into different archetype feat chains. So you get the starting dedication feat and can then proceed further in the archetype, getting more powers but becoming more indebted to the devil/fey/whatever you made the initial bargain with.

[Golurkcanfly]

Jedi Maester wrote:

I don't particularly see why this class is more unique than others for making deals with outer planar creatures. So I'd prefer to remove the feats altogether and make each one into different archetype feat chains. So you get the starting dedication feat and can then proceed further in the archetype, getting more powers but becoming more indebted to the devil/fey/whatever you made the initial bargain with.

It makes sense why this class might have the easiest time with it, but I agree the outright exclusivity is bizarre.

Hence the existing Contract system.

Then, you could get a Pactmaster archetype down the line that also interacts with said Contracts.

Combining the two also prevents the issue where you have two abilities that are mechanically and thematically near-identical, but they don't interact with the same things. Like in 1e where you could get Rapid Shot but better as the Zen Archer with Flurry of Arrows, but still needed to get Rapid Shot anyways for feat prerequisites.

[Lanathar]

Another +1 for making Pacts available for everyone
Which they might be through an archetype but I’m not sure it should even be that - as normally you would expect only one

Could almost be general feat territory or skill feat locked behind certain levels of skills (but flexible)

Perhaps something to allow the Thaumaturge to gain more of a benefit? And perhaps some unique ones ? But the ones here like devil and fey should be something anyone can try

[Jedi Maester]

Lanathar wrote:

Another +1 for making Pacts available for everyone

Which they might be through an archetype but I’m not sure it should even be that - as normally you would expect only one

To be clearer, I think each pact would be it's own archetype. So you take the dedication, Devil Pact. You get a simple boon and a simple debt. As you level, you can take more feats to gain further powers, but your debt increases. All to the same devil. There would be another dedication with different boons for fey and anything else.

[Golurkcanfly]

Lanathar wrote:

Another +1 for making Pacts available for everyone

Which they might be through an archetype but I’m not sure it should even be that - as normally you would expect only one

Could almost be general feat territory or skill feat locked behind certain levels of skills (but flexible)

Perhaps something to allow the Thaumaturge to gain more of a benefit? And perhaps some unique ones ? But the ones here like devil and fey should be something anyone can try

Turn the current Pacts into Uncommon Contracts, give the Thaum feats about interacting with Contracts (and give explicit access to the Uncommon Contracts), then also have an archetype that has those same feats and possibly other ways to interact with Contracts.

Plus, Dark Archives feels like a book that'd have more Contracts in it anyways.

I think this could also help reduce the burden of having multiple archetypes for different entities, since you could just pull from a wider range of Contracts and maybe have some supporting feats in that Archetype for additional flavor for different entities.

[OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0]

Well that all went somewhere new! Or, back to previous points from other threads about Contracts and non-exclusivity of Pact feats. All of which sounds like options I could get behind. Giving Thaumaturge’s some kind of greater Contract-conversant abilities that would actually extend the concept for future releases of Contracts and or Pacts. I’m completely unfamiliar with Contracts, so I’ll go check them out.

As to the theme/flavor of why Thaumaturges are Pact-conversant - I get that it might be a strange one but it does seem that even more than the Witch the Thaumaturge is the “ooky spooky class” with “hidden links” to “strange sources of power”.

For me, mechanically I find it discordant that Implements and Esoterica are kind of the main gig, then suddenly at 4th level the Thaumaturge embarks on a strangely stepped Pact-adjacent career. If they want. But there doesn’t seem to another career set at 4th level.

Again, I understand this is the Playtest document. So I’m discussing it.