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The recent Wrath of the Righteous pc game release has me looking at Mythic rules again. Sadly you don't seem to have enough abilites/feats to pick all the fun and mechanical options you might want so things need to be dropped (usually fun but mechanically poor options like arcane sanctum). However there are 3 mythic feats I need to choose 2 of for a build and I'm thinking spell penetration should be dropped but I'm not sure. The feats are . . .
Improved Initive: Add tier to initiative roll and spend mythic power to treat roll as natural 20.
Quicken Spell: Cast any spell as swift action or as an attack of opportunity alternatively spend 2 mythic power to treat any spell as quickened without preparing it that way or increasing the spell slot.
Spell Penetration: Add half tier to spell penetration roll if you have spell penetration or full tier if you have greater.
In addition channel power is a path abilitry that amongst other beneefits for a mythic point lets you ignore SR as if the target didn't have it. So I'm thinking spell penetration would be the one to drop. Yes it adds a large beenefit to your ability to overcome SR but if you have channel power you can spend a mythic point to just ignore it entirely and the other two seem to offer better benefits. Initiative is up to 10 to intiative roll and for a point guarantee a 20, quickened spell is for a point don't need to prepare ahead of time and if you prepare can cast it as an attack of opportunity.
Thoughts on which of the 3 I should drop?
You can boost spell penetration other ways easily enough. I'd drop that.
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That's what I was thinking that too. Though I just noticed eschew materials is largely unnecessary and am dropping that (10 GP per tier, 1 mythic power for 50 and 2 for 100 or just take component freedom and on casting decide whether to effectively use still, silent or ignore 100 GP per tier components). So this would free up two mythic feats for other functions.
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Improved Initive: Add tier to initiative roll and spend mythic power to treat roll as natural 20.
Quicken Spell: Cast any spell as swift action or as an attack of opportunity alternatively spend 2 mythic power to treat any spell as quickened without preparing it that way or increasing the spell slot.
What is the full name of this ability? Is it a feat or a path ability? I can't seem to find it.
Spell Penetration: Add half tier to spell penetration roll if you have spell penetration or full tier if you have greater.
In addition channel power is a path abilitry that amongst other beneefits for a mythic point lets you ignore SR as if the target didn't have it. So I'm thinking spell penetration would be the one to drop. Yes it adds a large beenefit to your ability to overcome SR but if you have channel power you can spend a mythic point to just ignore it entirely and the other two seem to offer better benefits. Initiative is up to 10 to intiative roll and for a point guarantee a 20, quickened spell is for a point don't need to prepare ahead of time and if you prepare can cast it as an attack of opportunity.
Thoughts on which of the 3 I should drop?
Out of the three, I'd drop Mythic Improved Initiative (assuming Quicken Spell works the way you say it does). Three reasons:
1) Mythic monsters either have phenomenal initiative scores (usually due to the Agile template or their own Mythic Initiative feat) or so-so. So you either have to go all-out to have a decent chance to beat them or you just accept that those will beat you and try to have a high enough score to usually beat the others.
2) Although it doesn't appear so when you are first reading through the mythic material, it is REALLY easy to burn through your Mythic Power. Especially if you are an archmage casting mythic spells, it's not at all uncommon to spend 3 or more (much, much more) power in a round. For that reason you shouldn't be relying on Channel Power to ignore SR.
3) Mythic Monsters tend to have pretty good SR. CR+11 if they just had the arcane template slapped on. Often CR+15 or more for fully statted creatures. Can you get there without Mythic Spell Penetration? Yes, but usually you will be spending arcane power to get to a reasonable chance. See above for why that's not a sustainable strategy. Mythic Spell Penetration is a scaling bonus that doesn't require actions or mythic power.
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Improved Initive: Add tier to initiative roll and spend mythic power to treat roll as natural 20.
Quicken Spell: Cast any spell as swift action or as an attack of opportunity alternatively spend 2 mythic power to treat any spell as quickened without preparing it that way or increasing the spell slot.
What is the full name of this ability? Is it a feat or a path ability? I can't seem to find it.
Spell Penetration: Add half tier to spell penetration roll if you have spell penetration or full tier if you have greater.
In addition channel power is a path abilitry that amongst other beneefits for a mythic point lets you ignore SR as if the target didn't have it. So I'm thinking spell penetration would be the one to drop. Yes it adds a large beenefit to your ability to overcome SR but if you have channel power you can spend a mythic point to just ignore it entirely and the other two seem to offer better benefits. Initiative is up to 10 to intiative roll and for a point guarantee a 20, quickened spell is for a point don't need to prepare ahead of time and if you prepare can cast it as an attack of opportunity.
Thoughts on which of the 3 I should drop?
Out of the three, I'd drop Mythic Improved Initiative (assuming Quicken Spell works the way you say it does). Three reasons:
1) Mythic monsters either have phenomenal initiative scores (usually due to the Agile template or their own Mythic Initiative feat) or so-so. So you either have to go all-out to have a decent chance to beat them or you just accept that those will beat you and try to have a high enough score to usually beat the others.
2) Although it doesn't appear so when you are first reading through the mythic material, it is REALLY easy to burn through your Mythic Power. Especially if you are an archmage casting mythic spells, it's not at all uncommon to spend 3 or more (much, much more) power in a round. For that reason you shouldn't be relying on Channel Power to ignore SR.
3) Mythic...
Mythic Improved Initiative is a feat from the mythic adventures book. Here's the nethys link Mythic Improved Initiative.
Never mind about quickened spell it has been pointed out to me (I was using hero lab for it) that it is a legendary games feat from a 3rd party book and not an option.
So taking that out of play it drops my options to 2 and I just need to ask if its worth 3 normal feats and 2 mythic. (spell pen, greater spell pen, improved initaitie and mythic initiative) or spend it on something else like mythic improved familiar.
Speaking from experience, I'm always really depressed when I fail a Spell Resistance check so I would hold onto Mythic Spell Penetration.
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Yeah, I was asking about Quicken Spell. It seemed way out of scale so I figured it was probably 3rd party.
It completely depends on what kind of caster you are. If you're throwing multiple empowered, maximized fireballs around every encounter, you are going to want Spell Penetration. If you're mainly a party buffer and conjuration caster, rarely targeting enemies directly, then you probably want to save those feats for something else.
As I mentioned above I find Mythic Improved Initiative to either be overkill (because you were going to beat them anyway) or only enough to get you a 50-50 shot unless you are willing to spend a mythic power at the start of every encounter.
So my answer would be that Spell Penetration is either a must-have or a do not take, depending on build. I wouldn't take Improved Initiative.
As for feats Spell Focus is pretty much a given for an attack caster, and at least one Mythic Spell Lore for any caster.
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Yeah, I was asking about Quicken Spell. It seemed way out of scale so I figured it was probably 3rd party.
It completely depends on what kind of caster you are. If you're throwing multiple empowered, maximized fireballs around every encounter, you are going to want Spell Penetration. If you're mainly a party buffer and conjuration caster, rarely targeting enemies directly, then you probably want to save those feats for something else.
As I mentioned above I find Mythic Improved Initiative to either be overkill (because you were going to beat them anyway) or only enough to get you a 50-50 shot unless you are willing to spend a mythic power at the start of every encounter.
So my answer would be that Spell Penetration is either a must-have or a do not take, depending on build. I wouldn't take Improved Initiative.
** spoiler omitted **
Arcanist mainly battlefield control (sleet storm, create pit, images, summon monster, some buffing e.g. haste and enlarge person not much direct blasting though there is a bit here and there). Trying to plan out mythich progression to avoid bad choices and have a little fun options rather than all mechanical bufs. What I'm looking at currently is . . .
Path Abilties
1) Channel Power
2) Component Freedom (usually used on material)
3) Crafting Mastery
4) Enduring Armour
5) Eternal Youth
6) Many Forms
7) Mirror Dodge
8) Mythic Sustenance
9) Perfect Preparation
10) Pure Body
11) Sanctum
Feats
1) Extra Path Ability
2) Improved Initiative
3) Mythic Crafter
4) Mythic Spell Lore
5) Spell Penetration
Crafting Mastery duplicates any crafting feat so mythic caster may be swappable for something else I'll need to check.
Channel Power is a 6th tier ability, Component Freedom is 3rd
Resilient Arcana will make all that annoying battlefield control stay around much longer, Flexible Counterspell will make you the most valuable player when faced with any spell-chucker, and if you're at all interested in illusions, Tangible Illusion is maybe the brokenest broken broke ability there is, if used creatively.
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Channel Power is a 6th tier ability, Component Freedom is 3rd
Resilient Arcana will make all that annoying battlefield control stay around much longer, Flexible Counterspell will make you the most valuable player when faced with any spell-chucker, and if you're at all interested in illusions, Tangible Illusion is maybe the brokenest broken broke ability there is, if used creatively.
I've generally heard poor things about counterspelling and strangely we don't seem to encounter many spellcaster enemies. Resilient arcana and tanigble illusion are nice but I'd be losing either another powerful mechanical ability (mirror dodge for example) or something I really like personally (sleepless or mythic sustenance). Be nice if we had two sets of choices for well lets of things not just mythic abilities because I always feel I have to give up fun stuff in favour of mechanically beneficial stuff. I'd far rather have something like star walker or divine source over channel power but I feel pressured to take channel power simply to stay relevant especially as starwalker is almost never going to be used much less important in a campaign.
I've generally heard poor things about counterspelling and strangely we don't seem to encounter many spellcaster enemies. Resilient arcana and tanigble illusion are nice but I'd be losing either another powerful mechanical ability (mirror dodge for example) or something I really like personally (sleepless or mythic sustenance). Be nice if we had two sets of choices for well lets of things not just mythic abilities because I always feel I have to give up fun stuff in favour of mechanically beneficial stuff. I'd far rather have something like star walker or divine source over channel power but I feel pressured to take channel power simply to stay relevant especially as starwalker is almost never going to be used much less important in a campaign.Channel Power is a 6th tier ability, Component Freedom is 3rd
Resilient Arcana will make all that annoying battlefield control stay around much longer, Flexible Counterspell will make you the most valuable player when faced with any spell-chucker, and if you're at all interested in illusions, Tangible Illusion is maybe the brokenest broken broke ability there is, if used creatively.
unless you have numerical advantage in a fight and take steps to improve it, yeah counterspelling isn't great, except with Flexible Counterspell, it just completely shuts down an enemy spellcaster, but if you don't run into many, then probably not a good investment. Same for Resilient Arcana, if you aren't having a problem with peeps dispelling your board control, not that useful. Again though, I'd advise not sleeping on Tangible Illusion, making illusions really real things is broken, you're basically a Green Lantern at that point.
After about a half-dozen mythic games, I find Mirror Dodge to be a trap, it spends far too many resources that a spellcaster desperately needs or can use more effectively elsewhere. On that same front, Enduring Armor isn't that great as well as typically even with it cranking at full power, you're not getting out of the way of anything that your meant to fight, I'd just take Mythic Fly and Mage Armor for the fortification.
As for the feats, unless you "regular" build centers on a lot of initiative boosters, I'd get rid of Mythic Improved Initiative. I built an Kensai Magus with the sole goal of cranking my Initiative as high as possible, every feat, class feature, trait, racial bonus, etc. Still could barely beat the Agile mythic monsters on some builds. Anything else, and you'll beat them 9 times out of 10 with just Improved Initiative and the your Tier bonus.
Mythic Crafter is garbage, the +5 bonus is unnecessary for pretty much all crafting tests.
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Counterspelling is usually extremely difficult to do. You need a readied action and to either have exactly the right spell prepared or to succeed at a dispel magic check. Flexible Counterspell, though? Spend a mythic power and any spell of the appropriate level as an immediate action. (Plus a spellcraft check, but that ought to be a piece of cake.) Automatic counter with no prepping
Mythic Crafter is garbage, the +5 bonus is unnecessary for pretty much all crafting tests.
Mythic Crafter can be good if know you want specific mythic magic items. Unless you live in a world with lots of mythic people you aren’t going to find a Ring of Transcendent Spells for sale.
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I've generally heard poor things about counterspelling and strangely we don't seem to encounter many spellcaster enemies. Resilient arcana and tanigble illusion are nice but I'd be losing either another powerful mechanical ability (mirror dodge for example) or something I really like personally (sleepless or mythic sustenance). Be nice if we had two sets of choices for well lets of things not just mythic abilities because I always feel I have to give up fun stuff in favour of mechanically beneficial stuff. I'd far rather have something like star walker or divine source over channel power but I feel pressured to take channel power simply to stay relevant especially as starwalker is almost never going to be used much less important in a campaign.Channel Power is a 6th tier ability, Component Freedom is 3rd
Resilient Arcana will make all that annoying battlefield control stay around much longer, Flexible Counterspell will make you the most valuable player when faced with any spell-chucker, and if you're at all interested in illusions, Tangible Illusion is maybe the brokenest broken broke ability there is, if used creatively.
unless you have numerical advantage in a fight and take steps to improve it, yeah counterspelling isn't great, except with Flexible Counterspell, it just completely shuts down an enemy spellcaster, but if you don't run into many, then probably not a good investment. Same for Resilient Arcana, if you aren't having a problem with peeps dispelling your board control, not that useful. Again though, I'd advise not sleeping on Tangible Illusion, making illusions really real things is broken, you're basically a Green Lantern at that point.
After about a half-dozen mythic games, I find Mirror Dodge to be a trap, it spends far too many resources that a spellcaster desperately needs or can use more effectively elsewhere. On that same front, Enduring Armor isn't that great as well as typically even with it cranking at full power,...
Counterspelling is usually extremely difficult to do. You need a readied action and to either have exactly the right spell prepared or to succeed at a dispel magic check. Flexible Counterspell, though? Spend a mythic power and any spell of the appropriate level as an immediate action. (Plus a spellcraft check, but that ought to be a piece of cake.) Automatic counter with no prepping
Mythic Crafter is garbage, the +5 bonus is unnecessary for pretty much all crafting tests.Mythic Crafter can be good if know you want specific mythic magic items. Unless you live in a world with lots of mythic people you aren’t going to find a Ring of Transcendent Spells for sale.
Hmmm maybe I'll swap out mirror dodge for tangible illusion and mythic initiative for mythic eschew mateirals or mythic improved familiar then.
I can see the arguments you make for flexible counterspell. The thing is about the only thing I'd be willing to give up for it is enduring armour and I'm not sure that isn't worth keeping. Yes AC isn't that great at higher levels but its still + 7 more AC than mythic mage armour comporable to full plate +3 and works against intangible enemies. Plus you can bring it up as a swift action. That's essentially +35% more chance for an enemy to miss compared to mythic mage armour.
Yes mythic crafter is specfiically to make mythic items.
the increase in AC only matters if it was within a range to possibly stop you from being hit. Mythic creatures are stronger than their normal counterparts and their normal counterparts don't have any problem whatsoever hitting a spellslinger. So it's more like with Mythic Mage Armor the creature has a 150% chance of hitting you, and with Enduring Armor it's only 115% chance. You're still getting hit. The fortification of Mythic Mage Armor is better in my opinion to keep from getting one-shot by an unfortunate nat20. Best defensive mythic abilities imo are Mythic Fly and Elemental Body IV (air elemental), because while giving you a pretty decent boost to AC, they also give you the mobility to escape from potential threats and/or make you outright immune to crits and sneak attacks and in the case of Elemental Body, can supercharge some spells; a Channel Power Elemental Body empowered Stormbolts is no laughing matter.
as for flexible counterspell, as you said your group doesn't run into a lot of spellcasters, you could probably leave it out.
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as for flexible counterspell, as you said your group doesn't run into a lot of spellcasters, you could probably leave it out.
Not yet, not sure about the future and I admit to liking it (if it weren't for blood arcanist using up exploits I'd have taken the arcanist counterspelling options). I took a look at some sample mythic beings while my computer was being fixed and yes I see what you mean about AC not being that important +2 full plate is great when your dealing with normal enemies mythic ones which will become more common not so much. So I'm currently thinking . . .
1) Channel Power
2) Component Freedom (usually used on material or somatic)
3) Crafting Mastery
4) Eternal Youth
5) Flexible Counterspelling
6) Many Forms
7) Mythic Sustenance
8) Perfect Preparation
9) Pure Body
10) Sanctum
11) Tangible Illusion.
1) Extra Path Ability
2) Improved Eschew Materials
3) Mythic Crafter
4) Mythic Spell Lore
5) Spell Penetration
swapping out enduring armour and mirror dodge for tangible illusion and flexible counterspelling while in feats I swap out improved initiative for improved eschew materials. That lets me ignore the less expensive components normally freeing up component freedom to give me a still or silent spell effect for free. Meanwhile if its the more expensive components I can use component freedom or pay a mythic power point or to for improved eschew materials. As for the most expensive ones sadly neither will cover them.
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Do you have many spells in mind with a material component cost of 10 gp or less per tier? Or any that you'd be likely to cast in combat costing 100gp or less per tier? If you don't have anything identified as a frequent user, I'd skip Mythic Eschew Materials. (And don't forget you would also have to take non-mythic Eschew Materials as one of your normal feats.)
I think you'd probably end up never (or extremely rarely) using Mythic Eschew Materials. Out of combat, Mythic Eschew Materials is a more costly version of Component Freedom. In combat you can use them in tandem if you need to ignore material and another component. But that's usually rare unless you are a polymorph specialist.
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Do you have many spells in mind with a material component cost of 10 gp or less per tier? Or any that you'd be likely to cast in combat costing 100gp or less per tier? If you don't have anything identified as a frequent user, I'd skip Mythic Eschew Materials. (And don't forget you would also have to take non-mythic Eschew Materials as one of your normal feats.)
I think you'd probably end up never (or extremely rarely) using Mythic Eschew Materials. Out of combat, Mythic Eschew Materials is a more costly version of Component Freedom. In combat you can use them in tandem if you need to ignore material and another component. But that's usually rare unless you are a polymorph specialist.
I always take the non-mythic one so I don't need to worry about bat fur, bear droppings, bits of various powders/etc, fleece, leather loops, shavings of ice, etc. I do admit mythic would see less use as most spells are <1GP or >1,000. However there are a reasonable of exceptions in my experience Steelskin (mixture of steel and diamond dust worth 100 GP), project image (5 GP replica of you), True Seeing (Eye ointment worth 250 GP), Create Undead (Clay pot filled with clay and onyx gem worth 50 GP per HD) to name a few. Admitedly 90% of the time they do overlap and I'm not entirely sure mythic eschew is worthwhile but there are cases where you may want to ignore a material component and cast a silent spell or not be able to gesture. There are definately plenty of reasons to have normal eschew and component freedom e.g. acid pit, the normal eschew free's you from the need of a drop of acid (material ) and component freedom ignores the 10 GP fine shove (focus). There's even more spells that have material components and foci or material components between 1 and 1,000 GP if you expand beyond core.
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Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding: you are aware that you really don't need to worry about bat fur, bear droppings, etc. the vast majority of the time anyway, right? A spell component pouch is considered to have an infinite quantity of any component costing less than 1 gold. The only reason to worry about those components is if you have your component pouch stolen or are using a feat like Cunning Caster.
Now, if you want to ignore the cheap material components for role-playing or stylistic reasons, by all means go for it!
There are 4 component freedom's.
Focus
Material
Verbal
Somatic
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Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding: you are aware that you really don't need to worry about bat fur, bear droppings, etc. the vast majority of the time anyway, right? A spell component pouch is considered to have an infinite quantity of any component costing less than 1 gold. The only reason to worry about those components is if you have your component pouch stolen or are using a feat like Cunning Caster.
Now, if you want to ignore the cheap material components for role-playing or stylistic reasons, by all means go for it!
Purely a personal/role playing choice. I have a personal dislike for the spell component pouch. Mechanically sure its a buy and never worry about cheap components but my personal mindset can't help but look at all those material components and get grumpy at the idea of them being crammed into one place and picture my mage pausing mid combat to go "Hmmm is this the bear dropping or the cat droppings . . . give me a moment here. Hey Thralgar your a ranger what animal crapped this out?" then waving the unidentified animal fece's with bits of fleece and other things in it under another party members nose.
I'd be happier with them actually being tracked and seperated more. With eschew materials I can ignore all those things and just substitute "magic power" only worrying about the components that are being tracked e.g. diamond dust which makes me a lot happier. Admitedly mythic eschew is more of a mechanic benefit which is why I'm more willing to drop it as my original set of selections didn't have it and why I'm currently debating asking if I can take mythic famiilar from mythic heros handbook to make my familiar mythic instead. Not sure what would be a better choice for me.
There are 4 component freedom's.
Focus
Material
Verbal
Somatic
That's not how we've always read it, there's 1 component freedom and you can apply it to any of those four options . . .
Component Freedom (Ex)): When you cast an arcane spell, you can ignore one component of the spell: focus, material, somatic, or verbal. You can ignore a focus or material component only if its total value is equal to or less than 100 gp × your tier. You can select this ability more than once; each time you take this ability, the number of components you may ignore for each spell you cast increases by 1.
The text talks about when you cast and words multiple takings as increasing the number of components you can ignore. There's not the limiting descriptors in other abilities that say "On selection choose one" or "When taking multiple times choose another option". This one says on CASTING you can ignore any one component of your choice and taking the ability multiple times increases the number of things you can ignore. That to us says you take it and can change it around with each casting to what benefits you most. Compare it to the unchained rogues hide in plain sight ability . . .
Hide in plain sight: A rogue with this talent can select a single terrain from the rangers favored terrain list. She is a master at hiding in that terrain, and while within that terrain, she can use the stealth skill to hide, even while being observed. A rogue may take this advanced talent more than once, [b]each time selecting a different terrain from the favored terrain list.
Far more restrcitive. Here it species on taking you select 1 terrain then you can take it again to add another different terrain. In comparison as I said component freedom is ON CASTING you select a component to ignore and taking it multiple times you can ignore MORE components. Very different wording and intent.
Thanks Senko!
That is much more flexible, and useful than Eschew Materials. Mythic or otherwise.
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Thanks Senko!
That is much more flexible, and useful than Eschew Materials. Mythic or otherwise.
Oh yes very, very useful and flexible. Main reason I still get normal along with it is that I can use component freedom to ignore expensive foci and eschew materials to negate all the cheap components. Similarly I can switch it to cast a still/silent spell at no extra cost when I don't have expensive components/foci. So for me Eschew materials remains a definately take option mythic game or not. Eschew mythic though has a much narrower range. Its not needed for cheap components, doesn't work on foci and while there are spells that fall in its range I'm not sure there are enough to justify it over other options.