What are the rules for learning rituals?

[Adraius]

I'm confused by the rules for learning rituals, especially as a non-spellcaster. Between the header for the rituals section saying anyone can cast rituals and the rules for rituals stating 1) the primary caster of a ritual must know the ritual, and 2) you can be a primary caster for a ritual even if you can't cast spells, it's clear non-spellcasters are supposed to be able to learn rituals. Rituals are referred to as spells. However, the action that seems appropriate, Learn a Spell, requires you be a spellcaster. Furthermore, the action requires you make a check with the skill corresponding to your tradition, which non-spellcasters don't have, and even under a generous interpretation where a non-spellcaster could use any of Arcana/Nature/Occultism/Religion to learn a ritual that requires the same skill for its primary check, there are weird cases such as Community Repair, a ritual where the primary check is Performance.

Pathfinder 2e has otherwise made it clear to me that when actions have traits or requirements, they are there for a reason, and Learn a Spell was plainly not written with rituals in mind. Thus I'm left with only the "Learning Rituals" subsection of the Rituals section, all of 3 sentences summing to, "Rituals don't count against limits for your normal spell casting abilities. You have to look hard to find someone to cast one, and they may not want to teach you."

Is Learn a Spell the way we are supposed to learn rituals and the action was written without accounting for them, or is the process for learning rituals simply left up to the GM?

[Perpdepog]

Learning rituals is basically left up to the GM, yes. They're more of a narrative tool than a strict mechanical progression because all rituals are at least uncommon, meaning the GM places them into the campaign as needed. As such there isn't a hard and fast way to learn them; the party can just be taught them or find a ritual at the end of a research session or whatever.

[Adraius]

I'm coming around to the idea that the total lack of any stipulations in the Learning Rituals subsection should be taken at face value - if you find a ritual you can learn it and use it more or less on the spot, unless the GM rules otherwise. It's odd that it's so different from the fairly involved process for learning Uncommon or Rare spells, but it facilitates tropes like encountering an ancient evil in an abandoned temple and shortly thereafter finding the ritual to seal it away and performing it on the spot. If it was intended to be so easy I wish it had been made more explicit, or if GMs are encouraged to be inventive with how rituals are learned, some guidance on how to reward the party with rituals and integrate them into a campaign feels sorely missing from the Core Rulebook/Gamemastery Guide.

[breithauptclan]

Yes, learning rituals is done according to the needs of plot.

Atonement and Resurrect are often freely available to have performed for you by someone at pretty much any settlement of any size.

But learning those rituals yourself should probably be tightly limited by the GM. It may be a bit abusive if a Druid or Champion can regularly violate their anathemas and just cast Atonement themselves out in the middle of the wilderness.

But that is and should be up to the GM of the particular game and gaming group.

[David knott 242]

All that would be needed to prevent abuse of Atonement would be to require that it be performed by somebody who does not share the guilt of whatever is being atoned for. It would then be impossible to cast Atonement on oneself and even having one party member cast it on another might be questionable in many cases.

[Perpdepog]

I don't think Atone is too much of a concern. Remember the opening lines.

Atone wrote:

You attempt to help a truly penitent creature atone for its misdeeds, typically actions contrary to your deity’s alignment or anathema to your deity. If the creature isn’t truly penitent, the outcome is always a critical failure.

And repeatedly breaking anathema and using Atone to reap the benefits seems about as far from "truly penitent" as it's possible to get.

[breithauptclan]

Don't get lost in the example and miss the point.

The rules for how to go about learning any particular ritual are, and should be, completely up to the GM for that particular game - whatever reasons that GM has decided.

[Perpdepog]

breithauptclan wrote:

Don't get lost in the example and miss the point.

The rules for how to go about learning any particular ritual are, and should be, completely up to the GM for that particular game - whatever reasons that GM has decided.

Really confused who this is meant to be directed at, or what purpose it's meant to serve.