Hello adventurer,
I Threw a Balor Demon at my 18th level party this weekend and I need everyone's opinion on the subject at hand.
Since the Balor bestows his weapon with Vorpal, I took that to mean that the Vorpal ability is now at 20th level. I now dont think that is the case any more. This matters because of the incapacitation trait. What level is the Vorpal property when bestowed by a creature? This only gets more confusing with the inclusion of the Major Striking Rune. If the weapon is 19 because of that rune then what is the DC and level of the Vorpal rune now?
Our rogue had his head cut off on a natural 20 and is now dead and depending on what the verdict is, I may owe him an apology.
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The DC does not change at all (it's baked into the Rune Effect and never changes), the only thing that matters is if the TARGET of the Incap effect is HIGHER level than the Effect itself, in this case it sounds like that is not the situation.
If the Rogue is 18, the Weapon is 19, and they failed their save you now have a fresh corpse on your hands.
The DC does not change at all (it's baked into the Rune Effect and never changes), the only thing that matters is if the TARGET of the Incap effect is HIGHER level than the Effect itself, in this case it sounds like that is not the situation.
If the Rogue is 18, the Weapon is 19, and they failed their save you now have a fresh corpse on your hands.
The Vorpal Weapon property is 17, but it is bestowed from a 20th creature which also gives it major striking. Does the incapacitation compare to a 17th level rune, 19th level from the max rune on the weapon, or 20th which is the level of the creature?
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Well the Rune is Item level 17 and that doesn't get heightened but the Major Striking Rune Effect is Item level 19, the highest of leveled effects that essentially "sets" the mechanical Item level, it shouldn't matter if it came from a level 20 creature nor would it change the save DC as those are not defined in the Infuse Weapons property and therefore are left to fall on the general rules that govern those Runes and Rune effects.
In this situation, the Rogue would have to be level 20 in order to benefit from the Incap Trait on Vorpal to push their Failed Save into a Success but that isn't the case.
-A very respectful RIP for the Rogue
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Incapacitation states "If any other effect has the incapacitation trait, a creature of higher level than the item, creature, or hazard generating the effect gains the same benefits."
Vorpal is a lvl 17 item (Weapon Property Rune) that grants a reaction that has the following effect : Effect The target must succeed at a DC 37 Fortitude save or be decapitated. This kills any creature except ones that don’t require a head to live. For creatures with multiple heads, this usually kills the creature only if you sever its last head.
The effect is thus generated by the lvl17 item (Vorpal Rune). Nothing in the Balor's description changes this.
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Well the Rune is Item level 17 and that doesn't get heightened but the Major Striking Rune Effect is Item level 19, the highest of leveled effects that essentially "sets" the mechanical Item level, it shouldn't matter if it came from a level 20 creature nor would it change the save DC as those are not defined in the Infuse Weapons property and therefore are left to fall on the general rules that govern those Runes and Rune effects.
In this situation, the Rogue would have to be level 20 in order to benefit from the Incap Trait on Vorpal to push their Failed Save into a Success but that isn't the case.
-A very respectful RIP for the Rogue
Major Striking Rune is indeed a lvl 19 item. But it is not generating the effect. The lvl 17 Vorpal Rune is.
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The Vorpal Weapon property is 17, but it is bestowed from a 20th creature which also gives it major striking. Does the incapacitation compare to a 17th level rune, 19th level from the max rune on the weapon, or 20th which is the level of the creature?
In my view Incapacitation goes with the monster level if that is giving you the effect.
Let's have a look what the Balor entry says
Bestiary pg. 83
Infuse Weapons (divine, evocation) Any weapon a balor wields becomes a +3 major striking vorpal weapon made of cold iron and silver while the demon holds it. A weapon that isn’t eligible for the vorpal rune doesn’t gain its effects. The balor can change its evil damage to chaotic whenever it attacks. The demon can conjure a whip made of flames with an Interact action. This whip gains the same benefits as other weapons the balor wields.
I would go with the level of the Balor. There are Balor Lords who can be even higher level (21-25).
Scouring the Bestiary for examples to back this up / invalidate this
The Giant Wasp is a Monster level 3 with Giant Wasp Venom. For this you would go with the monster level 3 and not the Giant Wasp Venom in the CRB that is level 7.
Interestingly - Purple Worm is level 13 (same as the Purple Worm Venom) but in the Bestiary lacks the incapacitate trait.
I also certainly would say - it clearly isn't level 19. Just because other runes are higher level don't upgrade the Vorpal Rune.
Edit: Replying to Black Raven - is it the item creating the effect - or the Creature - aka the Balor who enables his weapon to decapitate with the vorpal effect. It goes back to an ordinary weapon if he drops it - so I would go with creature level - but I can see arguments for the other way.
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I too agree with Thod. In this case, we aren't even talking about a Rune that is generating the effect, it is a "rune like effect" that the Balor spontaneously generates. Since the Balor is generating the Vorpal Effect, it's level becomes that of the Balor in my opinion.
And even if it were a Rune we were speaking of, that is covered by the following line in Runes:
The level of an item with runes etched onto it is equal to the highest level among the base item and all runes etched on it; therefore, a +1 striking mace (a 4th-level item) with a disrupting rune (a 5th-level rune) would be a 5th-level item.
If it were a "normal" +3 major striking Vorpal sword, the item level of the sword would be 19, due to the major striking rune. This would make the level of the item generating the effect (the sword) 19 for the purposes of incapacitation.
At least that is how I've always read Item levels with respect to effects generated by them. If anyone has anything that argues with that, I'd like to hear it.
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I wouldn't think you could go wrong in an encounter doing everything off of the level of the creature. Calculating different DCs and effects for one creature confuses things and hearkens back to earlier editions when NPC wizards had different DCs for different spells, wands, etc.
I'd say rock with level 20 for everything and don't look back. Sounds like an epic death.
The effect is not generated by the item named sword, but by the item named Rune.
Prove that. I would legitimately like to see it. As far as I know, an Item refers to the total item, when speaking of a weapon with Runes. And since we use the level of the highest level rune to determine said weapons level, that makes the item (weapon) which generated the effect's level that of the highest rune.
And this does make sense. It's the only way you could keep Vorpal somewhat useful beyond it's own level without having multiple Vorpal runes for sale between levels 17 and 20.
Note that the description of the Infuse Weapons ability of the Balor states "A weapon that isn’t eligible for the vorpal rune doesn’t gain its effects."
"Its" refers to the Vorpal Rune. So the effects indeed come from the Rune.
Doesn't change the level of the weapon the Balor is now holding. I would also still make the argument that the new "Balor-ized" weapon is likely a slightly higher level item than normal, probably closer to it's level instead of the normal 19th.
I think it's a level 20 effect, because the Balor generated it. However, you can see arguments made for every possible interpretation: L17, L19, and L20. As GM, you can run it how you want.
What did your rogue roll for their save? The only saving grace here is I don't see any degrees of success to worsen. There's no Success, Failure, or Critical version of those under Vorpal:
Effect The target must succeed at a DC 37 Fortitude save or be decapitated.
Did he succeed, but you lowered that success to a failure? Because that's not my interpretation here. You roll the DC and make it or you suffer the effect. The only interaction from the Incapacitate trait is whether it's higher level and capable of affecting the character or not. However, I would be surprised if there weren't people who chimed in to say it does worsen his result by 1 level, and I could see their point.
Also, was it a slashing weapon?