In the first printing of the book, the bard playing an occult spell on an instrument used that instrument as a focus component substitution. And so use of this focus component substitution was subject to the MANIPULATE tag.
I see now that the 2nd printing errata removed this specification that the instrument was a focus component. How come exactly?
Can bards play their instrument while grabbed without the required flat save?
Also I am afraid to ask about what the official status on how many hands a bard needs to use while casting with said instrument? All musical instruments say two hands. But a war-kazoo could theoretically, be one handed right?
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The rules on Bard specify:
Because you're a bard, you can usually play an instrument for spells requiring somatic or material components, as long as it takes at least one of your hands to do so. If you use an instrument, you don't need a material component pouch or another hand free. You can usually also play an instrument for spells requiring verbal components, instead of speaking.
So basically, instead of the normal spell components, you can Interact with your Instrument. The Interact action has the Manipulate trait, and the resulting spell components, since instruments make music, would all have the Auditory trait as well.
So no, you can't Interact with an instrument without a flat check. You also can't substitute spell components in an area of Silence.
It also makes casting Invisibility, which normally doesn't need a Vocal component, very difficult to do while hiding.
(whoops, typed up a post last night and never hit enter)
I'm not sure, but with a bit of searching I found this line in the errata about the change bards using instruments:
In the Component Substitutions sidebar, replace the second paragraph with the following to avoid implying changes to action traits.
If I had to guess, it would be that the old wording implied that Verbal-substituted components could lose the concentrate tag when cast through an instrument.
(whoops, typed up a post last night and never hit enter)
I'm not sure, but with a bit of searching I found this line in the errata about the change bards using instruments:
In the Component Substitutions sidebar, replace the second paragraph with the following to avoid implying changes to action traits.If I had to guess, it would be that the old wording implied that Verbal-substituted components could lose the concentrate tag when cast through an instrument.
Interesting, I was trying to figure out why they changed it. The rewording seemed to get rid of mentioning the instrument as a focus component and thereby getting rid of the MANIPULATE reference.
GM logic aside, is there anywhere that specifically mentions that playing an instrument is an "interact" action?
I suppose one of the rabbit holes of PF2E is that when you get used to rules specificity, you start looking for it everywhere to the sometimes suffering of common sense play rulings.
But at the same time, I am here because a player of mine said that MANIPULATE is nowhere RAW for Bard spellcasting, so that is that.
Thanks folks.
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The only RAW is that by having an instrument in one hand, you can play it instead of provide material components, thus eliminating the need for a Component Pouch. It doesn't change anything else about the spell, just that you don't need to purchase that specific item.
Ask them to point to the rule that states playing an instrument changes the traits of Spellcasting actions, and that should end the discussion.
Also, using an instrument would mean you need to Interact with it. It's not a rabbit hole, it's logic. But for something that can back it up, here's a magical instrument with an activation of Interact to "play" the instrument.
Somatic components automatically have the Manipulate Trait. If the bard spell requires the somatic component, then it has the Manipulate Trait. If the bard spell only has the verbal trait (as most bard compositions do), then it does not have the Manipulate Trait. Using an instrument to cast a spell for the bard is NOT an Interact action, it is part of casting the spell....which usually is a somatic component and thus has the Manipulate Trait anyway.
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With Sorcerers and Oracles, you can replace the Material component of a spell with a Somatic component.
With Druids, you can replace the Material Component of a spell with a Focus component, assuming you already have the focus in hand.
With Bards, you can complete Somatic, Material, and Verbal components of a spell by playing an instrument. The only RAW change here is that you don't need a component pouch, it doesn't actually change the components you provide for the spell.
(Though I still do personally think playing an instrument in general should be an Interact action included in the spells actions, meaning playing an instrument instead of speaking gains the Manipulate trait, while somatic and material components gain the Auditory trait.)
You can replace the somatic components of the spell with an instrument, but it is still a somatic component and thus has the Manipulate trait. It just removes the need for a spell component pouch (and possibly components that require a gp value in its cast?)
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Here is the issue how I see it
A) most bard spells are verbal - they do not provoke
B) most bard spells have performance - this might provoke
C) the only performance that has manipulate is play instrument
D) A cheap item bonus to performance is a level 3 virtuoso instrument for 50 gp
So as spellcasting bard you have a choice
Orate and sing - and don’t provoke - but also don’t get an item bonus
Play an instrument and get an item bonus and provoke
So there is a trade off. Ask the player why he uses an instrument. If his answer is to get the item bonus tell him the alternative and the cost.
Players choice what he decides.
Oh I see, its this sentence that is confusing: "You can usually also play an instrument for spells requiring verbal components, instead of speaking."
I'd make a call that the bard is replacing a verbal component with a somatic one in this case, and give it the Manipulate trait, but that seems like a GM call. And that can be tough when you have a player that questions every GM call with an demand to prove the call through RAW.
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The Item bonus from instruments only apply to Performance checks so the only reasons to use an instrument when casting is for flavor, and to not buy a Material Component Pouch. Also you can't Sing to replace Material Component's since it says it needs to be an instrument and take up at least one hand.
See, ha ha, rabbit hole to snap our ankle in.
I think my main confusion was that the first printing of the rules marked the instrument as a focus and foci automatically have the manipulate trait.
The new errata for 2nd printing just cuts out the ability for the instrument to wholly substitute for the required somatic component. The new ruling just says the Bard does not have to put thier instrument away to affect a somatic manipulation.
I was just looking for the instrument to gave the manipulate tag, when it didn't do away with the somatic component at all.
But, like above? Does an instrument bonus affect spellcasting in addition to performance checks?
See, ha ha, rabbit hole to snap our ankle in.
I think my main confusion was that the first printing of the rules marked the instrument as a focus and foci automatically have the manipulate trait.
The new errata for 2nd printing just cuts out the ability for the instrument to wholly substitute for the required somatic component. The new ruling just says the Bard does not have to put thier instrument away to affect a somatic manipulation.
I was just looking for the instrument to gave the manipulate tag, when it didn't do away with the somatic component at all.
But, like above? Does an instrument bonus affect spellcasting in addition to performance checks?
The instrument's bonus would not affect the spellcasting unless the spell calls for a Performance check.
The 2nd printing does not cut out the ability for the instrument to wholly substitute for the required somatic component. It still says "Because you’re a bard, you can usually play an instrument for spells requiring somatic or material components, as long as it takes at least one of your hands to do so. If you use an instrument, you don’t need a spell component pouch or another hand free." So you can't use a kazoo with no hands for example.
I think its easier to not bring the 'instrument' into the thought process for a bard casting a spell with a somatic component - if the spell has a somatic component it is going to have the Manipulate trait regardless if its an instrument or a component pouch. An instrument really is just flavor regarding somatic components.
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So you can't use a kazoo with no hands for example.
as long as it takes at least one of your hands to do so. So you can use a Kazoo, but it still needs to occupy a hand in order to use it for spellcasting. The whole reason they can use instruments to cast is because their composition spells require Performance checks, and if you're a guitarist it would be pretty annoying to have to deal with spells and a two-handed instrument at the same time. It's just a way to simplify Casting for bards that use instruments that require two hands and still cast spells without any issues.
It's not a Buff to Bards so that they can Cast a Spell without using any hands.
So you can't use a kazoo with no hands for example.as long as it takes at least one of your hands to do so. So you can use a Kazoo, but it still needs to occupy a hand in order to use it for spellcasting. The whole reason they can use instruments to cast is because their composition spells require Performance checks, and if you're a guitarist it would be pretty annoying to have to deal with spells and a two-handed instrument at the same time. It's just a way to simplify Casting for bards that use instruments that require two hands and still cast spells without any issues.
It's not a Buff to Bards so that they can Cast a Spell without using any hands.
Hence why is said with no hands, you have to use at least one hand.
Right, unless that spell requires a Performance check, bards don't get to use the instrument's bonus to the spellcasting check. So a bard casting hideous laughter does not get the instrument's bonus to their DC or whatever, but casting Counter Performance DOES require a Performance check and therefore gets the instrument's bonus.
Hooray!
Thanks folks for helping me work this out.