Hi;
first of all, sorry for my english ^^U I will try to explain the better I can. And sorry, too, if you think (when you read this thread) this is a basic question, or that it's clear to understand and answer; but i haven't found in any place (pages nor books) a real and clean answer to my doubt. My question has been generated due to a celestial Sorcerer; her first bloodline power is:
Heavenly Fire (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash a ray of heavenly fire as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. Against evil creatures, this ray deals 1d4 points of damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. This damage is divine and not subject to energy resistance or immunity. This ray heals good creatures of 1d4 points of damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. A good creature cannot benefit from your heavenly fire more than once per day. Neutral creatures are neither harmed nor healed by this effect. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
I've read (i don't remember where, to be honest xD) you can target friends and not only foes, that it was a typo. So, starting from that base, i went to Touch spells and Ranged touch spells, to determine how should it work... And here start the problem.
The Touch spells and Ranged touch spells are explained this way:
: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.
As we can see, there are two main explanations in bold and, two minor explanation of the first main one, both in italic.
So, I assume that, taking this into account, the description given in the first main explanation, in bold (Touch Spells in Combat) only refers to itself and its two minor ones in italic.
Then, the second main explanation in bold (Ranged Touch Spells in Combat) has its own rules, explained right there, in its explanation.
But Ranged Touch Spells in Combat doesn't give any factible explanation about if you can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, or not. There is no explanation for them.
Then, if the sorcerer wants to use the Heavenly Fire (Sp) in an injured friend, can she actually touch her friend, if it's in range automatically? Or must the sorcerer do an attack roll Vs its friend AC? And what Armor Class should be in that case? I find it really messy...
SO, that's the question: in the rules doesn't clarify nothing about Ranged touch spells Vs friends, at least directly, what should i do? is there any FAQ answering that? Why isn't that point clarified, given that it has been inherited from 3.5 (2003?)?
As i said at first, maybe i don't see something basic; maybe i'm missing a simple rule that clarifies that. But, in first instance, the only explanation about friends (you can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself) has been written only in the first paragraph in bold; not in the second (the one that concerns to us).
Diego Rossi is correct, you need to succeed at a ranged touch attack which means it is much easier to heal a friend in heavy armour than it is to heal a friend with a high Dexterity.
- Would I be the G.M., I'd houserule that a successful ranged attack against the square in which the friend is is enough, D.C. 5 -
THanks for the replies; i understood the things like Diego Rossi at first, but if it were the case, we shouldn't need to "houserule" to complete any action.
So, if it were that way, why do we need that? Shouldn't we consider, i.e., that the deflection bonus from a ring of protection still would avoid the "attack"?
So, we should play as a normal ranged touch attack? a ranged touch attack ignoring dextrity, a ranged touch attack with an effective Dex of 0, because your friend's gonna try to receive the spell? Considering that a helpless defender counts as Dex 0, it should be the same if he actively tries to get hit... But.. there is not an official rule, an official explanation, nor a FAQ... and i haven't found any about thiss in the forums...
You won't find anything in the rules as the problem here doesn't lie with the rules in general but with Heavenly Fire in particular when it qualifies its ray as a ranged touch attack when it is directed towards an ally. It shouldn't be an attack.
As such, my houserule would be on poorly written Heavenly Fire but not on the general rules of what a ranged touch attack is.
I would also allow you to simply treat the ally as helpless/not defending, meaning their AC is essentially said 5+/- size and deflection bonus.
I would also allow you to simply treat the ally as helpless/not defending, meaning their AC is essentially said 5+/- size and deflection bonus.
Likely you would rather treat them as unaware (lose Dex to AC), as most allies don't expect to be shot by you, even if it's a beneficial effect.
Then you would be hitting with a touch spell against an ally AC, minus their armor bonus (in most cases) and their dexterity and dodge bonuses.
They could probably reasonably make themselves an easy target for your shot for a split second, and unless you're in a silence effect, then you can verbally communicate when it's coming. Maybe that should provoke, or require an action on the ally's part, but if we are going by "targeting the square for 5 AC", this is already harder except maybe at level 1-3 before you get rings of protection.
You won't find anything in the rules as the problem here doesn't lie with the rules in general but with Heavenly Fire in particular when it qualifies its ray as a ranged touch attack when it is directed towards an ally. It shouldn't be an attack.
As such, my houserule would be on poorly written Heavenly Fire but not on the general rules of what a ranged touch attack is.
I knos it's heavenly i particular, in standard rules (but hence, they should explain everything in Heavenly Fire). So yes; it's normal it's not explained in Core Rulebook; but since we have Advance Player's Guide with this feat:
Reach Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells go farther than normal.
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long. A reach spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level for each increase in range category. For example, a spell with a range of touch increased to long range uses up a spell slot three levels higher. Spells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks.
Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, or medium do not benefit from this feat.
It would be a good idea to add any explanation, in internet, in the APG, in the feat... Well... anywhere. But something.
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About the rest; I am with Azothath in the part he says it's not a great, but only a helpful ability. But i actually have a Celestial sorceress in Harrowstone and asking a lot of things. And this is the only one that cannot be fairly explained using manuals/official rules.
If you don't use house rules, it feels obvious you must declare a ranged touch attack, use X modifiers and roll with your attack bonus; it's not considered an attack that deals damage, so it doesn't multiply the roll with a crit, but it's affected by proximity of enemies. Ok.
About Dextrity, how much to apply, i don't see as much as a houserule, but as a matter of diverse opinions.
In this case, I tend to put AC10 base + Modifier negative of Dex (-5, i mean): everybody is aware of everything in a combat; if you want to be more fussy, you can ask for a Perception roll to be aware of the ray. I consider that unnecessary.
The problem comes with the bonus... Because i consider logical (i mean, i'm talking about myself; i know my words are not canon xDDD) to add deflection bonuses, but not dodge. But, what happens with... alchemical bonus? Enhacement? Morale? Luck? Sacred? And with Circumstance bonus? (Well, it will depend from the circumstances... ahem... xDDDD).
There it's when everybody has its own opinion. And it's not a house rule. It's simply that there is no explanation about what to do with those bonuses when a friend choose you as a target. Because they wrote that "you hit automatically" only thinking in melee situations and didn't think about the ranged option. So, everything depends of the perception of the many different bonuses and how should be applied. The target of the ability is not flat footed; he is not unaware; he is aware of everything he can perceive in the combat ground. So, all the rules for that concrete situation (awareness) are out of this theme. But he wants to be "touched", even if he isn't near you.
Everything would be easier if, in Paizo had declared "it automatically hits too", or at least they they should explain which modifiers should be applyied and which ones don't.
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Everything would be easier if, in Paizo had declared "it automatically hits too", or at least they they should explain which modifiers should be applyied and which ones don't.
It doesn't automatically hit, and all modifiers apply. The lack of a specific exemption for allies means that you treat them the same as everyone else.
Ranged attacks are ranged attacks. If I fire an arrow at a stationary bulls-eye target butt, I still have to make an attack roll. It's not about whether or not the target wants to get hit, it's about how good I am at hitting that target.
Even though we take turns in initiative, a combat round is considered to all be happening at once. So if we did make a house rule allowing my ally to "drop his defenses" those defenses would drop vs. everyone. For comparison: lowering your spell resistance takes a standard action and lasts until your next turn.
For comparison: lowering your spell resistance takes a standard action and lasts until your next turn.
Do you then have characters at your table automatically hit by melee touch attacks if they have been the recipient of Cure spell since their last turn?
The inconsistency is that beneficial contact spells and effects require no melee touch attacks while this one, because of being ranged, requires to beat the A.C. of your ally.
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For comparison: lowering your spell resistance takes a standard action and lasts until your next turn.Do you then have characters at your table automatically hit by melee touch attacks if they have been the recipient of Cure spell since their last turn?
The inconsistency is that beneficial contact spells and effects require no melee touch attacks while this one, because of being ranged, requires to beat the A.C. of your ally.
Ranged attacks are way more limited when making "automatic" hits.
To make two examples:
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.
So, why that difference shouldn't matter for this ray?
BTW, it is a Ray, rays ate weapons, you apply Point Blank and anything that modifies weapons effects.
It doesn't automatically hit, and all modifiers apply.
Yep. I said "Everything would be easier if,"; i dodn't said it were the case. xD
But, "all modifers apply" is the problem. Because...If I fire an arrow at a stationary bulls-eye target butt, I still have to make an attack roll.
The bulls-eye has an armor too. Base AC 10 + Dex 0 (mod.-5); for a total of AC5, applying modifiers (range and size modifier, i.e.). In this case it's easy...
When you try to "hit" a friend, you apply all the pertinent modifiers. Ok... What are those? Agénor explanation is true; you cannot apply the same bonuses, since there are some actions that require different ACs; in the very same round, if there is someone invisible and you don't know where he is, you apply different bonuses. So, if you're aware about your friends, you'll apply different bonuses. Then, using that basis, you aren't gonna apply the dodge bonus of your friend... are you?? And there are much more bonuses that you must see if they should be, or not, applied.Ranged attacks are way more limited when making "automatic" hits.
Yes; they are in fact. It's clear in the cases you used as an example; but in the Helpless defenders explanation (a bit earlier of the part you pasted), we can read this:
A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. In addition, a helpless character is treated as having a Dexterity of 0, giving him a –5 penalty to AC against both melee and ranged attacks (for a total of –9 against melee and –5 against ranged).
The Dex Modifier of -5 is not one of those differences that make ranged attacks more limited.
I know it's not the same. And that's why i'm asking... which modifiers should be applied in such "attacks"?
And that's why I said "yes, but it would be much easier if...".
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As already said, if you want to make yourself helpless in the middle of combat, be my guest. I hope to be on the other side and profit from it. You can't make yourself helpless only against someone. When you drop your defense, you drop it. In Pathfinder combat is turn-based, so, if you want to be helpless when your friend act, you need to go helpless during your turn and stay so until your turn comes again.
Out of combat, that isn't a problem, during combat, it is.
As already said, if you want to make yourself helpless in the middle of combat, be my guest. I hope to be on the other side and profit from it. You can't make yourself helpless only against someone. When you drop your defense, you drop it. In Pathfinder combat is turn-based, so, if you want to be helpless when your friend act, you need to go helpless during your turn and stay so until your turn comes again.
Out of combat, that isn't a problem, during combat, it is.
Sorry if i don't see things like you see. If you, in your turn, choose to use your AC, let's say, "at full", using all the bonuses, but an enemy paralyzes you, you loose everything. If later, a friend of you tries to use a spell on you, you have no bonus; the AC has changed. And if he removes your paralysis, your AC changes again. If you fall below 0 hp, you are inmediately unconscious and if anyone heals you and raises your hit points above 0, it makes you fully functional again.If you want to drop prone, as a free action, after move for a threatened area and after receive some AOOs, for any reason, you change the modifiers you have vs different attacks.
There are many things that affect and alter constantly your AC; in fact, there are options you can choose that affect your AC, due to your choices.So, i don't see that explanation about that bonuses stay unalterable until next turn factible. If you have unalterable your armor, then you have unalterable your Saves... but in the game mechanincs, there are multiple spells that need cover to that situation (when you need something from a friend's spell) and therefore, they created rules for that: Saving throws "harmless": your friend can "alter" her will and fail, if he wants, to get the benefits. But, in fact, you can choose to save or not to save of the effects.
Pathfinder combat can be turn-based; but it's "alive"; it changes during the turns, in the turns and you can change it, by spells, by feats... or by decisions.
You are comparing involuntary conditions with a voluntary act.
They aren't the same thing.If you want to voluntarily change your AC, the change can be done only during your turn.
Drop rpone is not involuntary; you can do it whenever you want as a free action.
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Drop rpone is not involuntary; you can do it whenever you want as a free action.You are comparing involuntary conditions with a voluntary act.
They aren't the same thing.If you want to voluntarily change your AC, the change can be done only during your turn.
No, you can't.
See the difference between Drop prone and Speak:Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
Without the bolded permission, you can't Drop prone outside of your turn. There are feats that end with you dropping prone outside the turn, but the feat gives you the permission to do that. You can't do that out of turn without that kind of permission.
Sorry if i didn't explain correctly; mi english is bad as hell xD
I know that difference, yes; than you for the search :). What i tried to explain is that you can drop prone if you want, in your turn. Yes. My previous words gave tat wrong impression; sorry. My bad. I wanted to explain that you can, i.e. use your bow, shot against a ranged enemy and then drop prone as a free action; if an enemy is near you (maybe, because he is invisible and you didn't know), my AC changes. The AC is not constant and you can change it. Or at least, that's how i understand the things and i don't know about any official answer talking about fix armor (i say: i don't know; but it can exists).
Anyways, those things we are talking about are about some penalties we consider to apply or not to apply. But the initial goal i was looking for with this thread was to ask about any official writing giving details about this action. And I suppose this doesn't exist... : )
The good part is that i've received a lot of feedback and i really appreciate this (and i like you give me the option to discuss about to see things in different ways); so, apart from that, thank you for your response. :)