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I've been putzing around with a build idea based on 3pp. sources.
The major idea would be you can't use any Paizo sources for player options -- you have to use 3pp. for everything, including spells, races, feats, and equipment. I think the only possible exception would be skills and skill unlocks from unchained, but I'm going to use a variant skill group system from Rogue Genius games.
My basic idea is to do a tristalt that is limited -- all three classes have to be of a similar chassis -- i.e. d8 full casting divine caster (either spontaneous or memorized), d6 arcane caster (spontaneous or memorized), d10 full BAB+, etc. I'd probably have to judge the proposed combinations, because I can't imagine all the possibilities. The goal would be to make an ueber cleric or ueber spontaneous divine caster/oracle etc., and you wouldn't be allowed to make synergies between, for example, a full caster and a full martial.
I'd also like to make use of prestige classes as tree options like in an MMO -- you'd get a prestige class in the same chassis in your build at 5th level for free.
There's an entire set of scaling feats that replace the CRB feats I'd use, for instance.
I'm also interested in using 3pp. other than spheres -- I'd be open to spheres in builds but if this is just going to be spheres and path of war, that's not really super interesting, I'd like players to look into stuff like truenaming, ethermagic, spellweaving, or just run down obscure third party options and surprise me.
If that sounds interesting, ask some questions so I can firm up my ideas and make a clear recruitment.
Sources I'm looking at: Little Red Goblin Games' Alternate Paths Series, Ennead Games, Necromancers of the Northwest, Strange Magic, Misfit Studios(spellweaving)
Nice, and very crazy, crazy enough to work and not work,
And I don't think you can completely root out paizo content completely as some feats need paizo feats. Now I have a Monster of an idea forming that is likely crazy broken, and only using 3PP content.
YES. Yes. Yes. Interested, Dotting. Blah blah blah.
I have a 3rd party source that redoes all the core feats as scaled feats, and I wonder if that would be sufficient, but this is the kind of thing we'll have to work out -- that's why I want to discuss the concept first before I make a final recruitment so that we can iron out all these issues and not have the recruitment devolve into attempting to resolve rules interactions or issues I hadn't foreseen or contemplated sufficiently.
I have a homebrew world to run this in -- the basic concept is that it is an elementally charged world -- each of the primary continents is oriented toward earth, air, fire, water, void, and radiance. The gods all died in a gigantic war with demons, and were replaced by different kinds of priests -- those of philosophies, virtues, vices, zodiac, etc. The mortal races triumphed over the demons and qlippoth of the elemental chaos, but were then overwhelmed by incursions of evil dragon gods that assumed control of all the primary elemental planes -- except for radiance -- the good dragon goddess of that plane was killed by the evil dragon god of void. Her essence powers a kind of magitech based on radiance electricity, which is also derived from the sacrifice of the souls of her remaining followers.
The other challenge I'm setting for myself as a DM is not to use any first party monsters.
Here are some ideas I have rolling around:
I was thinking of basing the center of builds around the 'Talented Guide to X' series from Rogue Genius Games. These are basically make your own class versions of classes -- they basically turn all archetype features into talents and edges that can be selected at each level.
One consequence of this is that the only arcane caster available will be witch -- the fluff side of this is that magic is a demonic force and is based on power granted by demonic patrons. However, because of the political situation in the world, the demons actually sometimes make common cause with good forces to struggle against the forces of elemental evil, which are in the ascendance. There are a lot of odd alliances like this -- not only are the demons fighting the forces of elemental evil, but the different evil dragon gods are also fighting each other -- so it's possible, for example, that the evil dragon god of water might ally with other, normally opposed factions, against the evil dragon god of the void.
I think it might be best to have the Paizo content as a root for the feats that require them, as it'll make it simple.
Now I did mention I have a Monster of an Idea,
Well, it would be tristalting 3 Monster classes, yes, Monster Classes.
Necromancers of the Northwest, Succubus
Rite Publishing, In the Company of Giants
And still trying to find a good third Monster class to mix.
You'll have to give me examples -- this source I have redoes all the feats from the CRB as scaling feats. What are some examples of things that wouldn't be covered by that?
Love third party and I've been wanting to do a Tristalt game for ages, so interested.
I think it might be best to have the Paizo content as a root for the feats that require them, as it'll make it simple.
Now I did mention I have a Monster of an Idea,
Well, it would be tristalting 3 Monster classes, yes, Monster Classes.
Necromancers of the Northwest, Succubus
Rite Publishing, In the Company of Giants
And still trying to find a good third Monster class to mix.
The idea here would be to unify three very similar monsters -- like three dragon classes, or three large humanoid classes, not to synergize a small flying monster, a large melee monster, and a ueber magical monster, for example. What are the classes you're thinking about?
...
My basic idea is to do a tristalt that is limited -- all three classes have to be of a similar chassis -- ....
Yeah all 3 of my classes are Similar in that they are all Monster classes.
UsingNecromancers of the Northwest, Succubus
Rite Publishing, In the Company of Giants
And still trying to find a good third Monster class to mix in since there are NOT Many Monster classes that go to Level 20, as I might need to look at another In the Company of or take something else.
Though If they have to be very similar, I can make one with; save saves, Skill points the same, but HD and BAB will be a bit off.
I would want there to also be some sort of mechanical similarity in the chassis -- I don't really want anyone to make a fighter/wizard/thief tristalt, what I'm imagining is more limited like what I talked about above -- three hex-using classes, three d8 divine caster channeling classes, three d10 martial classes etc., though I'm open to ideas.
For example, three 'giant' classes, three 'dragon' classes -- what exactly is your idea. I'd have to look at it more closely if 'monster' classes as a group have enough similar features to be the equivalent of, for example, a d8 full divine caster, or if we'd have to divide them up into groups.
I would want there to also be some sort of mechanical similarity in the chassis -- I don't really want anyone to make a fighter/wizard/thief tristalt, what I'm imagining is more limited like what I talked about above -- three hex-using classes, three d8 divine caster channeling classes, three d10 martial classes etc., though I'm open to ideas.
For example, three 'giant' classes, three 'dragon' classes -- what exactly is your idea. I'd have to look at it more closely if 'monster' classes as a group have enough similar features to be the equivalent of, for example, a d8 full divine caster, or if we'd have to divide them up into groups.
You then Need to define chassis in very clear terms, and I'll say this, some terms, won't match as intended with monster classes, as some have the Best BAB, but make so they don't use it because they do another role. So it is a bit of a mess.
Though they all have a divine side for my alternate one with the same saves, skill points, but different BAB and HD, even though the some similar roles.
I would want there to also be some sort of mechanical similarity in the chassis -- I don't really want anyone to make a fighter/wizard/thief tristalt, what I'm imagining is more limited like what I talked about above -- three hex-using classes, three d8 divine caster channeling classes, three d10 martial classes etc., though I'm open to ideas and I haven't completely decided where to make those divisions.
For example, three 'giant' classes, three 'dragon' classes -- what exactly is your idea. I'd have to look at it more closely if 'monster' classes as a group have enough similar features to be the equivalent of, for example, a d8 full divine caster, or if we'd have to divide them up into groups.
Here are the fluff ideas I have for class roles/concepts:
gnostics/channelers/vessels/manifesters/elementalists/avatars -- these the the divine casters; there are no real clerics for pcs to be, as the only real gods are the dragon deities of elemental evil, and those are strictly villains. The equivalent, which can use cleric and similar classes, are mortal receptacles of numinous powers. This would include minor, though not major elements (i.e., not void, earth, air, water, or fire (radiance is a special category, see below).
witchs/warlocks -- these are the arcane casters -- arcane magic is defined by patronage of a given demon lord. There might be several mechanical ways to represent this, but all arcane magic is associated with demonic influence.
radiolarians/illustratives/illuminarians -- there are several orders of in universe characters that channel the dying power of the Plane of Radiance and its dying dragon goddess. I had in mind that this would include some kind of magitech that involved radiance electricity, as well as knights with weapons made out radiance, and gunslingers that shoot radiance bolts. This kind of power is somehow different from the other elemental forces because it's patron is dying, and it also draws on the self-sacrifice of the life energy of the followers of the dying/sleeping dragon goddess of radiance.
assassin/alchemist -- this would be some kind of mix of alchemist -- thinking about poison handling and brewing as the major feature here, as well as backstabbing and deathstrike/studied strike kinds of features.
tinkers/artificers/gunsmiths -- confined to certain areas of the world, but basically 'gear meisters'
bards/troubadours/minstrels -- I'm thinking of different non-casting bard options, making song effects or other features somehow replace spellcasting (I really want to confine arcane casting to the witch/patronage/hex-using chassis).
spymaster/acrobat -- something like a jack of all trades, diplomancer, disguise master, trap-finding technician.
beastmaster, wilderness buddy class build.
I would want there to also be some sort of mechanical similarity in the chassis -- I don't really want anyone to make a fighter/wizard/thief tristalt, what I'm imagining is more limited like what I talked about above -- three hex-using classes, three d8 divine caster channeling classes, three d10 martial classes etc., though I'm open to ideas.
For example, three 'giant' classes, three 'dragon' classes -- what exactly is your idea. I'd have to look at it more closely if 'monster' classes as a group have enough similar features to be the equivalent of, for example, a d8 full divine caster, or if we'd have to divide them up into groups.
You then Need to define chassis in very clear terms, and I'll say this, some terms, won't match as intended with monster classes, as some have the Best BAB, but make so they don't use it because they do another role. So it is a bit of a mess.
Though they all have a divine side for my alternate one with the same saves, skill points, but different BAB and HD, even though the some similar roles.
Yes, I hadn't thought of even using monster classes for this, so that does present some more complications. The thing I'm trying to avoid is having that be an avenue to make a standard tristalt experiment where you try to adopt the strengths from different chassis like a full BAB fighter wedded to a full caster. I don't want to do that -- I want to 'deepen' one mechanical concept like a d8 3/4 caster or a d6 full arcane caster, etc.
..
For example, three 'giant' classes, three 'dragon' classes -- what exactly is your idea. I'd have to look at it more closely if 'monster' classes as a group have enough similar features to be the equivalent of, for example, a d8 full divine caster, or if we'd have to divide them up into groups.
...
Yeah, sad to say there is ONLY ONE dragon class monster class,
Giants, there are only two published.Those of the Fey and Outsider type, a fair number of those.
Other monster types are more rare.
The three similar enough together I'd be mixing together are in the face/support roles.
...
Yes, I hadn't thought of even using monster classes for this, so that does present some more complications. The thing I'm trying to avoid is having that be an avenue to make a standard tristalt experiment where you try to adopt the strengths from different chassis like a full BAB fighter wedded to a full caster. I don't want to do that -- I want to 'deepen' one mechanical concept like a d8 3/4 caster or a d6 full arcane caster, etc.
If it is a large mess, then dial it back some and just do gestalt.
And at this point I after reading this, I'd be open to using standard Paizo stuff, as some roles don't have a lot of support, and some 3PP can't be defined well in what it, also there is little chance that you could own all the 3PP that would be used or suggested to be in use.
...
Yes, I hadn't thought of even using monster classes for this, so that does present some more complications. The thing I'm trying to avoid is having that be an avenue to make a standard tristalt experiment where you try to adopt the strengths from different chassis like a full BAB fighter wedded to a full caster. I don't want to do that -- I want to 'deepen' one mechanical concept like a d8 3/4 caster or a d6 full arcane caster, etc.
If it is a large mess, then dial it back some and just do gestalt.
And at this point I after reading this, I'd be open to using standard Paizo stuff, as some roles don't have a lot of support, and some 3PP can't be defined well in what it, also there is little chance that you could own all the 3PP that would be used or suggested to be in use.
That's sort of the whole inspiration -- I want to try out stuff that may never have been used in actual play -- obscure classes, spells, equipment, etc. People will naturally default to stuff that's familiar, so it's going to need a hard ban on first party stuff to force players to make entire spell lists out of 3pp material, for example, or come up with some weird 3pp. elf instead of the normal one. If you can't use normal armor or weapons, you have to find unusual replacements.
I'd going to challenge myself too -- come up with a world with no basic monsters, but entirely weird stuff from 3pp. sources -- no black dragons or owlbears, for example.
I'm willing to take suggestions for how exactly to achieve the concept I'm going for with class design/choice. My main concern is I don't want hybrid builds, I want some rules that encourage a build based on a single chassis or mechanical concept.
There is Paizo content that hardly ever sees use; PrCs, and monster Templates.
I did a game that used both Monster Classes and Templates, but it died after a while due to GM burn out.
Earlier I tried running another where PrCs had to be used, though that fell threw due to Tower of the Last Baron not being a "Look over here for a clue what to do next" type of module.
Both those ideas above did have reasonable turn out wanting in.
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Hard banning Paizo stuff, you Know that'll be a problem right,
somethings are standard for a reason, as I don't think there is a replacement for the Cure spells that is 3PP.
Also if that happens I doubt anyone will want to be a spell caster, as getting 3pp replacement spells will be quite the toll on the wallet and even then have a good chance at being UNhappy with their options.
I as a GM would Never Ban all the CRB or other Hardcover books denying their spells. As I'm betting it'll mean you'll need to make custom monsters day in and day out as I'm willing to bet they DO refer to CRB or other Hardcover book spells.
Well, then the problem becomes where does one draw the line -- because then I think the natural tendency will be to default to familiar and 'safe choices', and then it sort of defeats the purpose of what I'm going for here. Once certain spells are allowed, then someone will push on races, etc.
I'm interested in the implications of not having any easy cure spell, etc. and forcing working around that.
That also nukes monster classes some are they refer to CRB spells, ones that don't see much use.
Currently seeing the absolute hardline of No standard Paizo stuff, I'm out.
As I can see this game falling apart fast with no interest.
That and you will have a VERY hard time finding monsters, as I bet they use Paizo Monster features, so going by that hard rule; no darkvision, no scent, no claws, no bite, no monster types usable, ... etc.
There's of course a difference between 'claws' and basic rules like hit points, AC, and saves, and other things like spells and equipment. I'd be open to discussing where to set the boundaries, but I want to delimit it pretty closely -- that wouldn't include, for example, a blanket allowance on all feats and spells. The distinction might be that you can use it if it's part of class or racial trait, but you can't pick CRB spells as a caster.
It would also be perfectly possible, for example, to use akashic mysteries and psionics and replace all divine and arcane casting with those systems, or use another form of casting.
I'm honestly only really interested in this idea if I can get a group on board with my vision -- that's why I did an interest check instead of a full blown recruitment. If there's not enough interest, I'll just shelve the idea for now or maybe try it out on another board.
I'm thinking of making a Heir Apparent, Rajah and maybe a Scholar, basically a strong support and buffing character with limited abilities to do direct damage but really good at helping there allies. Would that work?
That's the sort of thing I was imaging, yes. Some of this will be looking at individual proposals because I can't anticipate all the possibilities.
Sounds like it could be fun.
So far I'm looking at mixing Malefex from Dreamscarred Press, Malefactor from Total Party Kill games and Stalker from Paths of War using the Soul Hunter archetype.
All are d8, 3/4th BAB and a have penchant for causing misfortune and ill fates in others.
I must say though that there is one baseline feat that I probably can't avoid with this build: Weapon Finesse. I'd expect to get it through Stalker class features but getting that effect(though not necessarily the feat) is pretty much a must.
That looks pretty good too.
There's plenty of third party spells. Rite publishing alone has a series with 1600 spells, it will just take more effort because it will involve looking through lots of new material and not defaulting to tried and true build options.
I'm going to use a series that rewrites all the crib feats as scaling feats. They have the same options and names, just rewritten to get rid of feat taxes and to increase usefully with level. Weapon finesse will be available in a heightened version.
I am interested. I am sure I would put spheres stuff in as I am familiar, but I would have at least part of it be some non-sphere thing to keep things interesting.
i am wondering at the feasibility of doing 3 classes that are blended, like not full caster not full martial. or something that is maybe only "full" in certain respects (such as the classes that get 1 sphere at full, the others at 2/3rds or whatever, or like flurry of blows getting full martial but other that not full, idk). Very rough wisp of an idea
I'm open minded on exactly what the combination looks like -- as I said, I can't imagine all the possibilities. I do think that I need to clarify the concept, because the usual, or at least a predominant, gestalt strategy, as described in the version of these rules in Unearthed Arcana, is to try to cover lots of bases and pair classes with different features -- that's not what I want to do here -- I want to create deeper, wider versions of a single concept.
What level were you thinking of starting at?
I like the Talented series from Rogue genius Games as well. Great concept to bring even more customization to an already customizable system.
Now when it comes to 3PP, my mind always goes to the godling classes of Rogue Genius. But since all other Gods died are were replaced by Dragon Gods, a godling tristalt would only make sense for a taninin character.
Also, the series that birthed the taninnin, In The Company of.. are great resources for monster classes to tristalt.
Fat Goblin Game's Abandoned Arts imprint does some new archetypes with their Class Act series, and feats from their Feat of.. series; feats of all the ability scores, and more nebulous fare, like Leadership, Marksmanship, Seduction, Fury, etc.
Speaking of an elemental focus, Super Genius Games, among others have lots of new fire, air, earth, and water spells to be accessed.
Currently, I'd likely try, if given permission a monster class and/or a racial paragon class, along with a third caster or martial class to tristalt in.
What level were you thinking of starting at?
For level, at least 6th so we could add in the prestige class.
I have all those elemental spell supplements from rogue genius; there are also a bunch from Rite Games -- for this game I'd make a google folder and share it with everyone who's playing. I feel like that's fair use because I legit bought all this stuff in a bundle deal, so it's just like having a print copy that gets shared at a table.
I'm still thinking about the mechanical side -- I'm more interested in keeping it 3rd party than a particular build set of ideas, though I think tristalt if it's too open quickly becomes everyone is their own party, so I'd have to think about it some more.
Sounds like it could be fun.
So far I'm looking at mixing Malefex from Dreamscarred Press, Malefactor from Total Party Kill games and Stalker from Paths of War using the Soul Hunter archetype.
All are d8, 3/4th BAB and a have penchant for causing misfortune and ill fates in others.I must say though that there is one baseline feat that I probably can't avoid with this build: Weapon Finesse. I'd expect to get it through Stalker class features but getting that effect(though not necessarily the feat) is pretty much a must.
Just to give you an example, this is a copy of the new form of weapon finesse:
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee
combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip,
or spiked chain made for a creature of your
size category, you may use your Dexterity
modifier instead of your Strength modifier
on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its
armor check penalty applies to your attack
rolls.
At 7th level, you may add half of your
Dexterity bonus (instead of Strength) to
damage with finesse weapons.
At 14th level, you may add your full
Dexterity bonus (instead of Strength) to
damage with finesse weapons.Special: Natural weapons are considered
light weapons.
I have one open slot for a character (technically 3 but I don't like to push that limit). I would be interested but only based on what I know so far.
What of the story?
What of the world/dimension? Are we looking at Golarion? Some other world? Eberron?
What is the intended path that we are on?
What are likely terrains that we will be in in this campaign?
Will it mostly be social or hack and slash?
ETA for when you are willing to run this?
Are you going to just recruit from here or make a recruitment page?
I'll make up a recruitment page when I settle all the mechanical issues -- I'm not in a big hurry, and I may want to talk through some of the potential rules interactions and concepts for several weeks before I make up a formal recruitment.
The game will be in a homebrew world of mine which is a mix of a lot of different inspirations. I've described it a bit above. The major hook is that it is an elementally focused world. All the races and monsters will have elemental templates/alignments of some sort.
I'm going to try to write up a little campaign guide for a recruitment, but here are the basic ideas:
There are six major continents which are aligned with the six major elements: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Void, and Radiance. The elemental planes of these elements are the gateways to all the hundreds of quasi and para elemental domains in the wider multiverse -- for example, there are gateways to the planes of metal, crystal etc. in the Plane of Earth, but you have to pass through that plane first to get to all those other locations.
In the distant past, the gods created the different mortal races, but their rule was contested by the demon lords of the Maelstrom at the center of the Elemental Planes. During a great war, the gods sacrificed themselves to overcome the forces of the Abyss, but, when the mortals had believed they had triumphed, they were assaulted by the five of the dragon gods of the elemental planes -- mysterious entities of elemental power that each rule one of the inner planes. The dragon goddess of radiance was defeated by her evil kin, and persists in a state of near death. The world is now under the assault of the combined forces of the dragon deities of elemental evil, though the threat of the demons has not completely passed either...
For terrain -- I'm imagining some adventures on different elemental planes as well as some more standard sword and sorcery spleunking. There are a few old dungeon magazine adventures I'm imagining converting/adapting/drawing inspiration from -- one is about a group of shadow gnomes that live in tidal caves that contract the party to clear out a rival tribe of goblinoids who have invaded their home, another is about a conflict between dwarves and surrounding kingdoms over a mountain pass. I might also draw on the 'styes' and 'the blight' from richard pett to portray some urban adventures in an ill-reputed tropical port city.
Heya Seb,
This sounds super interesting! Some suggestions, if I may?
1) Instead of banning all of Paizo material, how about just banning all the core classes? A lot of people default to them, myself included. Sorcerer is probably a top 3 class for me.
*However* to keep with your theme of 3pp, limit each PC to only one non core Paizo class.
2) For races, there's actually a fair amount that can be found on d20PFSRD. But, maybe ban all core races, and then like a handful of commonly chosen other races(Aasimar/Tiefling/Drow, etc)? I don't think banning Kitsune or Oread is necessary, for example.
3) I'm not sure about banning all Paizo spells.
On the one hand, as said above, there's not much out there to replace basic healing spells. Though, the Life sphere should be good(plus class features).
However, there is a ton of 3pp spells out there, so you won't be too hard pressed to find interesting ones.
4) I think the scaling core feats are fine, but there's a ton of less used Paizo feats out there. If you go with your usual 3 per level for Tristalt, that allows you to really dig into less common feats.
I had a lot of fun looking into more interesting feats for Hamza for example.
5) One other thing to consider: What happens when a 3pp class grants a feat that isn't one of the scaling ones? Or if it has a spell list that includes a lot of Paizo spells? Attempting to replace them could lead to a lot balance issues.
************
This could be an truly awesome concept, but I think a bit of flexibility on what's banned will actually lead to a much better game, than just outright banning *everything* from Paizo.
Heya Seb,
This sounds super interesting! Some suggestions, if I may?
1) Instead of banning all of Paizo material, how about just banning all the core classes? A lot of people default to them, myself included. Sorcerer is probably a top 3 class for me.
*However* to keep with your theme of 3pp, limit each PC to only one non core Paizo class.
2) For races, there's actually a fair amount that can be found on d20PFSRD. But, maybe ban all core races, and then like a handful of commonly chosen other races(Aasimar/Tiefling/Drow, etc)? I don't think banning Kitsune or Oread is necessary, for example.
3) I'm not sure about banning all Paizo spells.
On the one hand, as said above, there's not much out there to replace basic healing spells. Though, the Life sphere should be good(plus class features).
However, there is a ton of 3pp spells out there, so you won't be too hard pressed to find interesting ones.
4) I think the scaling core feats are fine, but there's a ton of less used Paizo feats out there. If you go with your usual 3 per level for Tristalt, that allows you to really dig into less common feats.
I had a lot of fun looking into more interesting feats for Hamza for example.
5) One other thing to consider: What happens when a 3pp class grants a feat that isn't one of the scaling ones? Or if it has a spell list that includes a lot of Paizo spells? Attempting to replace them could lead to a lot balance issues.
************
This could be an truly awesome concept, but I think a bit of flexibility on what's banned will actually lead to a much better game, than just outright banning *everything* from Paizo.
no skin in the game for myself yet as i don't have a concept nailed down, but along the lines of what MG said, maybe give people "paizo points". For example, everyone has 10 points, and if you want to use a paizo class (perhaps still banning core), that's 4 points. 1 point could be a feat, or access to 10 spells. idk havent totally fleshed out the idea, but it's something
This is based off of this class/race combo I was thinking of using as part of my tristalt. I tried to come up with something that would fit your dragon/elemental/demon-themed world. My inspiration was the "how to spot a disguised dragon" picture initially and has evolved from there. Would something like this mechanically work for part of a build or did you have other things in mind (eg. restrictions, limitations, etc.)?
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General Racial Traits
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Ability Score Modifiers: Dragons are powerful beings with infinite possibilities, overall above the average in every field. They gain +2 to two stats of their choice (2RP, originally 6RP?).
Size: Dragons are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties coming from their size. (0RP)
Type: Dragons have the dragon type. Therefore they are immune to magical sleep and paralysis effects. (Immunity x2 4RP)
Base Speed: Dragons have a base speed of 30 feet on land, and a flight speed of 40 feet with good maneuverability. (Flight 2EP) [Note: The reason I didn't take 4RP for flight and 4 additional RP for good maneuverability was that dragons have a size modifier for flight. Typically, medium dragons have good flight and much faster than this class/race provides. I instead opted for an Evolution point as it made more sense.]
Languages: Dragons begin play speaking Common and Draconic. Dragons with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Aquan, Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Ignan, Terran, Undercommon.(0RP, originally 1RP)
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DEFENSE RACIAL TRAITS
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Dragon Resistance: Dragons are immune to the energy type they chose with elemental mastery. (2RP)
Natural Armor: Dragons gain a +4 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class. Dragons cannot gain proficiency in wearing armor.(1EPx2=2EP-4feat= -2RP, originally -1RP) [Note: There was no indication of Natural Armor bonuses at a reasonable rate for dragons. I also opted here for evolution points and gave them a penalty of not being able to gain proficiency from other classes gained.]
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FEAT AND SKILL RACIAL TRAITS
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Removed, N/A (Originally Greed 1RP)
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OFFENSIVE RACIAL TRAITS
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Bite: Dragons gain a natural bite attack, dealing 1d6 points of piercing damage plus 1–1/2 times their Strength The bite is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if the dragon is wielding manufactured weapons. (1RP)
Claws: Dragons receive two claw attacks. These are primary natural attacks that deal 1d4 points of slashing damage each. (2RP)
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SENSES RACIAL TRAITS
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Darkvision: dragons can see in the dark up to 60 feet. (2RP)
Low-Light Vision: dragons can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. (1RP)
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OTHER RACIAL TRAITS
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Quadruped: Dragons possess four legs, granting them a +4 racial bonus to CMD against bull rush and trip. (0RP)
Elemental Mastery: Each dragon is tied to one elemental energy of their choice: electricity. This choice is made upon creation and cannot be changed later on. (0RP)
Greater Visage: Visage Dragons can assume the appearance of a Small or Medium humanoid as the alter self spell. They, however, do not adjust anything except their physical appearance/reach/voice to match that creature. Instead, while having the solid appearance of size of that creature, magically, they retain all of their draconic racial traits including natural attacks, movements, size bonuses, and quadrupedal bonuses despite having the form of another. When performing actions such as a bite or claw attack, the wounds delivered represent in similar size and fashion as if they were in their draconic form instead of whatever form was taken. When attempting to fly, it would create as much wind force as if they were in their original form despite no wings possibly being visible in their current form. These attributes may hold some hint to the hidden nature within. (6 RP)
Then could that be combined with some sort of u.monk 3rd party since it seems close and maybe some kind of melee elemental class?
Or perhaps Vorpal Knight and The Bushi which are both full bab classes, or does it have to be a dragon class?
I asked for an example of a class gaining a feat above and didn't get a reply with an example - is there one that isn't something that would be a core feat covered by my alternative scaling version source?
I'm not sure about the spell list question I need an example where it would come up.
I feel like the race, class, feat, and spells should be doable to use all 3pp. There are literally thousands of options for all of those things. Keep in mind that also includes alternative versions of core classes like the legendary class series.
I need to see some actual examples of where the restriction to third party sources is going to cause difficulty. Just pointing out that the go to healing spells are in there isn't good enough. I'm sure there are other options, they just need to be located. There are psionic forms of healing, for example.
I could not play a Shadowweaver or Phantom Thief for example.
You also mentioned wanting to use PrCs. There's not very many non Paizo PrCs out there, and if you're banning Paizo material, how are you gonna handle pre-reqs or class features?
The Master Chymist for example requires stuff from the Alchemist class.
While the Rage Prophet grants spells via the Rage Mystery.
You could ban all Paizo PrCs, and won't need to worry about it, however the number of PrCs not from Paizo is very small. On the Spheres wiki(main page) there's only 14.
I guess the most important question I have, and that you also need to ask yourself is this:
What exactly are you trying to accomplish by banning Paizo material?
Are you wanting a certain 'feel' for the world and setting? If that's the case, a Paizo Fighter and a Legendary Fighter, are going to feel and play the same(more or less).
You could limit classes to specific theme. I remember years ago, somebody either ran a game, or maybe discussed running one, where they only allowed what they referred to as 'dark' classes. These were classes that had a less 'good' feel to them. I can't remember the exact list, but it was a really good example getting the right feel for their setting.
You could get rid of all classes that rely on Paizo material in any way, shape or form, but then you vastly cut down on the number available.
If, instead, you're looking to just have people play characters that are 'not the norm' and make use of less popular/more obscure classes, races, spells, etc, then my above suggestions of banning core(and perhaps a handful more) material(aside from spells) and then further limiting what they can use from Paizo(like only 1 class) would probably work.
Finally, if you just want people to really use 3pp stuff, then instead of outright banning everything from Paizo, just require people to use 3pp classes/races, but still allow Paizo spells and feats. Otherwise, you run into issues with classes like the above linked ones.
Perhaps allow once class with Paizo, but required a 3rd party archetype added on for that non-standard goodness?
I could not play a Shadowweaver or Phantom Thief for example.
You also mentioned wanting to use PrCs. There's not very many non Paizo PrCs out there, and if you're banning Paizo material, how are you gonna handle pre-reqs or class features?
The Master Chymist for example requires stuff from the Alchemist class.
While the Rage Prophet grants spells via the Rage Mystery.
You could ban all Paizo PrCs, and won't need to worry about it, however the number of PrCs not from Paizo is very small. On the Spheres wiki(main page) there's only 14.
I guess the most important question I have, and that you also need to ask yourself is this:
What exactly are you trying to accomplish by banning Paizo material?
Are you wanting a certain 'feel' for the world and setting? If that's the case, a Paizo Fighter and a Legendary Fighter, are going to feel and play the same(more or less).
You could limit classes to specific theme. I remember years ago, somebody either ran a game, or maybe discussed running one, where they only allowed what they referred to as 'dark' classes. These were classes that had a less 'good' feel to them. I can't remember the exact list, but it was a really good example getting the right feel for their setting.
You could get rid of all classes that rely on Paizo material in any way, shape or form, but then you vastly cut down on the number available.
If, instead, you're looking to just have people play characters that are 'not the norm' and make use of less popular/more obscure classes, races, spells, etc, then my above suggestions of banning core(and perhaps a handful more) material(aside from spells) and then further limiting what they can use from Paizo(like only...
You'll have to explain the shadowweaver and phantom thief examples -- what is it that it needs from the core rule book?
There is a legendary alchemist https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Alchemist_(Legendary) that could be used for master chymist
Rage Prophet -- I'd need to look if there are alternative spells for this mystery in a 3pp. source.
The goal here is that there are interesting permutations of concepts that arise from not just picking the default/base ideas, that I want to push participants to use. I'm also going to restrict myself, for example, only to third party monsters and templates.
I'm willing to discuss the parameters within reason, but so far I feel like I've laid out my vision of what the tristalt would involve, and I've had push back on that, and I've laid out my vision of sources, and I've had a lot of push back on that too. If I'm going to run this, then I want participants that are genuinely interested in the vision I have and want to imagine ways to make it work, like an interest to look through obscure non-core spells rather than just balk at the extra work, not a long conversation to try to get me to do something else.
If I was going to come up with parameters that allowed some first party material, it might be something like no class, race, feat, or spell, from the core rule book, advanced class guide, advanced player's guide, or occult adventures, ultimate intrigue, or ultimate wilderness, -- i.e., none of the base classes, but you can use races, feats, and spells from the chronicles series that would cover stuff like very obscure poison feats or lava archetypes or templates.
Look over the Shadoweaver and Phantom Thief's spell lists. So many of them are from Paizo.
The archetypes for the Legendary Shifter couldn't be used, because they make use of the various 'form/body' spells.
That Vorpal Knight SmooshieBanana said they wanted to use?
They can't. It gains a class feature, Phylocrux, that uses Paizo spells.
Wait, you also said things like no Paizo equipment. Does that mean we can't use a longsword or plate armor? What about magic item enchantments? There's several classes/archetypes that grant things like flaming, frost, shock, etc.
I was imagining using 3pp. compilations of magical items instead.
I'm willing to discuss some of this, but I want the emphasis to be on making my vision work, instead of everyone beginning by asking for exemptions/exceptions/coming up with reasons things don't work, etc. I'm not going to be interested in doing this if I get a lot of negative energy out of a simple interest thread, or all the energy being directed towards trying to get me to allow some preconceived build idea that doesn't fit the vision I've outlined.
For classes, this thread Super Genius Games Class Equivalents outlines alternatives to every core class.
For spells, we might be able to come up with a rule like you are required to pick 1/2 of your spells from third party sources, and I'll likely ban a lot of common game breaking stuff that isn't fun from core like wish, haste, time stop, etc.
I have scaled equivalents of all the basic feats, so that's not an issue.
For equipment, I'm interested in using weird magical items from third party sources.
I am down for using all 3rd-party for just about everything. I think as long as there is some leeway to work with us and just a general strong theme of utilizing 3rd-party over paizo stuff, we should be okay using those things to fill in the gaps on a case-by-case basis. But it sounds like we won't have to since there is a supplement for pretty much everything.
do we have a sort of list of the character ideas that have already been presented? since we are more or less to stick to one theme rather than being entire parties unto ourselves, i want to stake a claim on an idea that someone else hasnt had
I'd be looking at a character whose power revolves around curses and bad luck. Still looking for a race though. Normally I'd lean towards Changelings but since they are Paizo material I'm still looking for something else that fits. I'm sure I'll find it, just haven't yet.
Functionally the character would be a mix of debuffer and damage dealer as well as some degree of skill monkey. I'm mostly sold on two of my classes though (Malefex and Malefactor) and could be a bit more flexible with the third, as long as I stay close to concept (looking at Soul Hunter Stalker at the moment but could go other ways as well. Hellion by Rogue Genius would fit thematically but would make the character quite MAD).
Haven't found a fitting PrC though.
Going for a strong support character with limited offence but the ability to make everyone else a lot stronger. The character will be a noble, used to command - and able to bestow gifts on there chosen.
Hey, Cuan, have you checked out the Luckbringer to balance out the Malefex in the whole 'twisting fate' idea?
I have two primary ideas currently. Both play off the same character and just manipulate the classes a bit. First is the idea I proposed above, the second is a few classes that almost seem magus-like, but definitely not support. Mostly offense and frontline, but the second idea does have spells.
i'm thinking of making mine being some kind of boogeyman
The Fright Wright archetype of the Elictiter class might be a good place to start for that, with the Ungermaw for a bitey offense and the Ghoul race might be an interest way to make a fairly terrifying monster.