Any rules for running monsters without a DM?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

The Exchange

Are there any rules in either official or third party material for running monsters without a DM? Sort of like an AI system that tells you what a monster does each turn. I'm thinking about making a whole party of characters and playing through an AP by myself, or just set up some fights and see how well I can do - but I would need a way to control the monsters.


Not that I'm aware of, but that'd be fantastic!


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game.

Though there is less actual role-playing in it. Still a lot of fun.


Why would one need rules for that? Assuming you're reading the AP that is.
It'd be akin to playing chess with oneself, something I used to do way back when funnily enough. Both sides having a fair sense of what the other's doing seems legit, at least with the smarter enemies.

Otherwise playing solo would require a computer which would amount to a whole video game (which Paizo does have albeit with a PF1 foundation). Most encounters have a section for basic tactics (even if it's just "fights to the death"). And one would have to try to separate one's "party" mind from one's "enemy" mind as objectively as possible, which would be a mean feat.

When it comes to RPing scenarios, secrets, or secret doors, then one has to build a party built to find those out through mechanics coupled w/ a paranoid nature to check for secret doors, traps, etc. Or just default to the party seldom finding those unless necessary. Maybe.

Pre-covid, I'd frequently run PFS scenarios that I'd play afterward. This is one reason my PCs have to have a personality that drives them so that even while I prep the encounters I can tell where a certain PC would or wouldn't have made the stronger choices. Even with self-driven PCs sometimes I have to tell the table my PC will be stepping back a notch because I the player know too much and can't separate it in this instance. Though capable, my PCs tend to play a bit fast and loose to aid with this. Mixing extreme caution w/ GM knowledge would be a bit too extreme IMO.
Since a self-GMed AP doesn't allow for stepping back, the PCs will need that much more of a distinct way of adventuring (whether tactically or driven by personality).

The Exchange

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The point would be that if you had a set of rules for the monsters, then you would not have to "separate your party mind from your enemy mind", because you wouldn't be making strategic decisions for the enemies, you would just be following the rules. That is why I would want rules for the monsters.


Yes, that point was obvious, yet unachievable.
If we had a set of rules for the monsters, it'd be incomplete.
No flowchart could encompass all the directions a single battle could go much less every battle w/ all the variants in setting and creature intelligence, plus the dynamics of nearby encounters.
Like I said, it'd take a video game level AI, and that doesn't translate well to pen & paper (and would take a lot of printed space!). Nobody's going to invest that much writing for such brief battles.

Best case is you run the monsters at their most basic for dumb ones and at their best for smart ones, as if they could determine most of what the players will do, much like the players would do in return.


Some years ago I was thinking about a 'Pathfinder solitaire'.
The conclusion I came to was that you would have to make a flowchart for each monster, and for those with multiple, different abilities (spells, for example) that would be extremely complicated.

Silver Crusade

Kingdom Death has an AI Deck for each monster, which is neat.

But it’s for each and every monster, trying to do that for P2 would be obscene.


Combat apart, what about the plot itself?


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You can get all kinds of GM emulators or 'oracles' from DrivethruRPG, arguably the best of which is Mythic Game Master Emulator (as seen on the solo RPG podcast 'Me, Myself & Die'). The Universal NPC Emulator is another smart pick if you're seriously considering solitaire gaming.

Does the Minotaur make a charge attack against Paladin Pete?
Let's call that a Near Sure Thing (roll under 90% on d100)
* rolls d100 = 05 *
Not only is that a Yes, it is an Exceptional Yes, so the Minotaur likely makes some sort of power attack against Paladin Pete.
... and so on.

HumbleGamer wrote:

Combat apart, what about the plot itself?

With Mythic, you roll whenever you would normally ask the GM a question and the oracle answers either Exceptional Yes, Yes, No or Exceptional No. Examples from the first scene in Rise of the Runelords,

Are there any goblins in the street?
Does the fire spread to adjacent buildings?
Is the Sheriff in trouble?
Does the grateful noble offer a reward for saving his life?
... and so on.

Additionaly, there's something called the Chaos Rating and rolling doubles over the current CR results in a random event that could dramatically change the flow of the adventure as it is presented in the printed module.


Castilliano wrote:

Yes, that point was obvious, yet unachievable.

If we had a set of rules for the monsters, it'd be incomplete.
No flowchart could encompass all the directions a single battle could go much less every battle w/ all the variants in setting and creature intelligence, plus the dynamics of nearby encounters.
Like I said, it'd take a video game level AI, and that doesn't translate well to pen & paper (and would take a lot of printed space!). Nobody's going to invest that much writing for such brief battles.

Best case is you run the monsters at their most basic for dumb ones and at their best for smart ones, as if they could determine most of what the players will do, much like the players would do in return.

there are entire systems and ttrpg games designed for solo, gmless, play

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Vlorax wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

Yes, that point was obvious, yet unachievable.

If we had a set of rules for the monsters, it'd be incomplete.
No flowchart could encompass all the directions a single battle could go much less every battle w/ all the variants in setting and creature intelligence, plus the dynamics of nearby encounters.
Like I said, it'd take a video game level AI, and that doesn't translate well to pen & paper (and would take a lot of printed space!). Nobody's going to invest that much writing for such brief battles.

Best case is you run the monsters at their most basic for dumb ones and at their best for smart ones, as if they could determine most of what the players will do, much like the players would do in return.

there are entire systems and ttrpg games designed for solo, gmless, play

Other TTRPGs, Castilliano (and this thread) is talking about P2.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Most APs include tactics for more important fights, especially with spellcasters, but they're often incomplete in the "if players do x opponent does y" as this rabbit hole would eat up too much word count.

Best alternative I can think of is to get Bestiary cards, sort by level, and take a -2 to +2 level assortment, roll a d4 and take that many cards from the pile, roll initiative for everyone and the choose the best tactics at the given initiative for each npc or PC as makes sense for their abilities and situation.

Edit: treat each creature as if they were your character on each of their turns

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