If a character has multiple sources that apply Persistent damage of the same type to a strike, how is it handled?
I'm leaning towards "no", but I need to reduce the doubt I have on it.
If one ability grants 1d6 Persistent Bleed, and another grants 2 Persistent Bleed, on the same strike, would these combine together into 1d6+2 Persistent Bleed before applying to the target?
I know if it was separate applications of Persistent damage applying, they wouldn't stack, as only the highest would apply. But if they're from the same strike, does that change the calculation at all?
Examples:
Bleeding Finisher
+
Knife Weapon Specialization (When Critting)
Wounding Rune
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Tiger Stance Tiger Claw attacks (When Critting)
Bloodletting Kukri (When Critting)
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Brutal Critical (When Critting)
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No, none of that stacks and changes the calculation. Even if the abilities inflicting persistent damage are on the same Strike, the general rule that only the highest damage persistent of a given damage type applies still holds.
Multiple Persistent Damage Conditions
You can be simultaneously affected by multiple persistent damage conditions so long as they have different damage types. If you would gain more than one persistent damage condition with the same damage type, the higher amount of damage overrides the lower amount. The damage you take from persistent damage occurs all at once, so if something triggers when you take damage, it triggers only once; for example, if you're dying with several types of persistent damage, the persistent damage increases your dying condition only once.
I've gone with the expected value when determining which counts as higher. In APs, at least, that's generally been to the player's advantage, so they haven't complained the rare times it worked against them.
No, none of that stacks and changes the calculation. Even if the abilities inflicting persistent damage are on the same Strike, the general rule that only the highest damage persistent of a given damage type applies still holds.
Multiple Persistent Damage Conditions
You can be simultaneously affected by multiple persistent damage conditions so long as they have different damage types. If you would gain more than one persistent damage condition with the same damage type, the higher amount of damage overrides the lower amount. The damage you take from persistent damage occurs all at once, so if something triggers when you take damage, it triggers only once; for example, if you're dying with several types of persistent damage, the persistent damage increases your dying condition only once.
Right.
My hangup with it, is if you look at other damaging effects (non persistent), they get added up if they're the same type before being applied to the target with the strike. Two sources adding fire damage to an attack, say a Flaming Rune, and an Elemental Fist Ki Strike, both of those fire damages get added together, then applied once to the target (so that weakness/resistance applies once).
Persistent damage is different in that an enemy can only be sufferings from one at a time of the same type, but I'm trying to see why exactly the bleeding effects wouldn't come all together before being applied, like that Fire Damage would be.
An interesting question, though, would be how to determine what the higher value is, when comparing static persistent vs variable.
For example, would 4 persistent bleed be "higher" than 1d6? The average of 1d6 is lower, but the maximum potential is higher.
Right?
I'd wondered about this too, and the phrasing suggests you choose one and go with it, not that you roll them all and take the highest. I'd have to default to the highest average value.Except what if one instance of bleeding is harder to remove than another (has a higher flat check DC), yet perhaps does less damage?
It'd be removed by a more damaging bleeding effect automatically when maybe it's really difficult to remove naturally. It seems odd that one might overcome such a severe condition better by applying a different bleed effect that does more damage, yet is easier to remove.
"Here, let me tear your flesh open so we can heal you." :)
Of course that's getting into extreme corner cases.
For the edge case scenario(which I don't think has a defined resolution), I'd deal with it like you deal with overlapping conditions of different degrees & durations (Enfeebled 3, 1 Round versus Enfeebled 1, 4 Rounds), you track them both, but only apply the greatest.
So something like
2d6 persistent bleed normal flat check to remove
1d4 persistent bleed dc 20 flat check to remove
I would track both of the character, only rolling the 2d6 until its gone. The PC still gets two different flat checks at the end of the round for their two conditions.
No, none of that stacks and changes the calculation. Even if the abilities inflicting persistent damage are on the same Strike, the general rule that only the highest damage persistent of a given damage type applies still holds.
Multiple Persistent Damage Conditions
You can be simultaneously affected by multiple persistent damage conditions so long as they have different damage types. If you would gain more than one persistent damage condition with the same damage type, the higher amount of damage overrides the lower amount. The damage you take from persistent damage occurs all at once, so if something triggers when you take damage, it triggers only once; for example, if you're dying with several types of persistent damage, the persistent damage increases your dying condition only once.Right.
My hangup with it, is if you look at other damaging effects (non persistent), they get added up if they're the same type before being applied to the target with the strike. Two sources adding fire damage to an attack, say a Flaming Rune, and an Elemental Fist Ki Strike, both of those fire damages get added together, then applied once to the target (so that weakness/resistance applies once).
Persistent damage is different in that an enemy can only be sufferings from one at a time of the same type, but I'm trying to see why exactly the bleeding effects wouldn't come all together before being applied, like that Fire Damage would be.
Dealing additional damage and inflicting a persistent damage condition are two different mechanics. To make sure the question is clear, are you looking for speculation about why the mechanics are different and whether that's needed for balance, or looking for rules text stating that they are different mechanics?
looking for rules text stating that they are different mechanics?
This one really.
What makes Persistent Damage different than normal Damage when calculating how much someone takes from an ability?
What specifically is the source of the Persistent Damage? Is it the Strike that's applying it, or the Feat/Item/Ability that grants the bleed damage? If it's the feat/item/ability as the source, then there's no question they don't stack. But if it's the Strike, it seems they should combine.
I realize it's pedantic, and will shrug and move on if I can't nail it down, but it's still just something I'd like to solidify if possible.
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What makes persistent damage different is that persistent damage is a condition that you apply, not damage that is dealt during the resolution of the Strike. CRB page 451
In general, conditions don't stack with like conditions unless specifically stated. CRB 618
Persistent damage, in specific, also doesn't stack if it is of the same type. CRB 621
There is no rule regarding Strikes to reference, that would cause these feats and items to be added together, anymore than a Ruffian Rogue with vicious debilitations and spear critical specialization could combine them to apply Clumsy 2 on a critical hit. Because conditions have to say they stack.
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The one odd exception to Persistent damage being a "Condition" as opposed to just "Damage" is when it's doubled on a Critical Hit.
I used to argue the "it's a Condition, therefore it's not doubled" stance, but the Errata muddied the waters afterwards.
So I can understand the confusion.
persistent damage is a condition that you apply, not damage that is dealt
That made it click in my head. I was thinking of "Persistent Damage" as, well, "Damage" when I shouldn't be. It's not actually damage at all. No more than Confusion is damage. It just is likely going to deal damage as part of it's effect, but it is a Condition like any other.
Thanks for helping me work it out!