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I'm playing an Arcane Sorcerer. I added heal via Crossblooded Evolution at level 8 and now I want it as 1st-level signature spell. Can I use retraining to change my signature spell for my first spell level to heal, even though I didn’t have heal in my spell repertoire at level 3 (when I gained the Signature Spell class feature)?
You’ve learned to cast some of your spells more flexibly. For each spell level you have access to, choose one spell of that level to be a signature spell. You don’t need to learn heightened versions of signature spells separately; instead, you can heighten these spells freely. If you’ve learned a signature spell at a higher level than its minimum, you can also cast all its lower-level versions without learning those separately. If you swap out a signature spell, you can choose a replacement signature spell of the same spell level at which you learned the previous spell. You can also retrain specifically to change a signature spell to a different spell of that level without swapping any spells; this takes as much time as retraining a spell normally does.
When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat. If you don’t remember whether you met the prerequisites at the time, ask your GM to make the call. If you cease to meet the prerequisites for an ability due to retraining, you can’t use that ability. You might need to retrain several abilities in sequence in order to get all the abilities you want.
Alternatively, could I use Arcane Evolution to have heal as a signature spell?
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See if your GM will let you re-do your initial selection of the feat.
Crossblooded sez:
You can swap which spell you add and from which tradition as you could any other sorcerer spell, but you can’t have more than one spell from another tradition in your spell repertoire at the same time using this feat.
Swapping Spells In Your Repertoire sez:
As you gain new spells in your spell repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. This spell can be a cantrip, but you can't swap out bloodline spells. You can also swap out spells by retraining during downtime.
SO - You take Crossblooded at Level 8 and you get a "new spell" at level 8, thus you can swap out one of your existing spells. The crossblooded spell does not need to fill the new level 4 slot - instead you can swap out one of your level 1 spells and replace it with the crossblooded spell at level 1 (but not a bloodline spell!).
Signature spell sez: "If you swap out a signature spell, you can choose a replacement signature spell of the same spell level at which you learned the previous spell."
So, if you take the crossblooded spell as a 1st level spell and swap out the 1st level signature spell, then you get to designate a new signature spell which could be the crossblooded spell. If you do not want to lose the signature spell (and keep it as a non-signature spell), you can either swap it out, then use your ability to change one spell in your repertoire at level 9 to swap it back in OR you could swap in the crossblooded spell as a non-signature spell, then use retrain to switch the signature spell to the crossblooded spell.
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I'm playing an Arcane Sorcerer. I added heal via Crossblooded Evolution at level 8 and now I want it as 1st-level signature spell. Can I use retraining to change my signature spell for my first spell level to heal, even though I didn’t have heal in my spell repertoire at level 3 (when I gained the Signature Spell class feature)?
No you can't at level 8. But it doesn't really matter as there is another way to do it.
The trick is that there are two mechanisms here for changing your spells.
You can swap it out in your repertoire on leveling, or you can retrain it.
Retraining has all the limits about meeting prerequistes at the time you orginally took it.
But swapping when you level doesn't. You just have to make the spell the same level. Then you get to reselect a signature spell.
Because there is a legal way to do it. Some GMs will just hand wave it and let you do it anyway.
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I'm playing an Arcane Sorcerer. I added heal via Crossblooded Evolution at level 8 and now I want it as 1st-level signature spell. Can I use retraining to change my signature spell for my first spell level to heal, even though I didn’t have heal in my spell repertoire at level 3 (when I gained the Signature Spell class feature)?
No you can't at level 8. But it doesn't really matter as there is another way to do it.
The trick is that there are two mechanisms here for changing your spells.
You can swap it out in your repertoire on leveling, or you can retrain it.Retraining has all the limits about meeting prerequistes at the time you orginally took it.
But swapping when you level doesn't. You just have to make the spell the same level. Then you get to reselect a signature spell.
Because there is a legal way to do it. Some GMs will just hand wave it and let you do it anyway.
I'm going to have to disagree with you.
It is my suspicion that you are engaging in First Edition Thinking (I just made that term up!), that or I've got it entirely wrong (which wouldn't be the first time).
In first edition, the sorcerer class says: "Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows."
In other words, each time you gain a new level and get a new LEVEL of spell, you can swap out an existing spell. First Edition players all had drilled into them that spontaneous casters can ONLY swap out a spell when they gain a new LEVEL OF SPELLS.
The sorcerer class in second edition uses different language: "Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level."
It says each time you gain a LEVEL and learn new spells (NOT a new level of spells), you can swap out one of your old spells. it DOES NOT say that you only get to swap out spells when you get a new level of spells. So, it is my belief that the designers decided to let spontaneous casters swap out a spell EVERY LEVEL, not every two levels like in PF1.
It says each time you gain a LEVEL and learn new spells (NOT a new level of spells), you can swap out one of your old spells. it DOES NOT say that you only get to...
I'm not disagreeing with that.
The rules for spell swapping say Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. That occurs new every character level for a sorcerer
NECR0G1ANT asked about using retraining specifically. Retraining doesn't work but swapping does. There is no way a level 3 arcane sorcerer can known heal(1) to select as their first signature spell so it is not a valid option and they can never retrain into heal(1) as their first signature spell.
However you can use the spell swap rules to do it, by specifically swapping out your current 1st level signature spell. Then it is not retriaining and doesn't have that limit.
Its a finicky bit of rules that many people will just ignore and do it anyway.
Huh, I thought you could choose which spells are signature spells daily. Learn something new every day...
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Yeah, this seems like one of those cases where the RAW rules clearly don't align with RAI.
Yeah, you should absolutely be able to change what spells you have selected as signature spells during downtime. And you should be able to select any spell you have in Repertoire when doing so.
The only problem is that they called it 'Retraining'. I think that changing a selection of signature spell should have its own downtime activity rather than trying to piggyback off of the retraining rules.
Huh, I thought you could choose which spells are signature spells daily. Learn something new every day...
Yep try writing a guide and watch your misconceptions get shown up very quickly. We all have them. We just don't notice them. Not a big deal, just enjoy the game.
Yeah, this seems like one of those cases where the RAW rules clearly don't align with RAI.
Yeah, you should absolutely be able to change what spells you have selected as signature spells during downtime. And you should be able to select any spell you have in Repertoire when doing so.
The only problem is that they called it 'Retraining'. I think that changing a selection of signature spell should have its own downtime activity rather than trying to piggyback off of the retraining rules.
I think I'm just misremembering the playtest rules, where I think it was permitted to switch your chosen signature spells on a daily basis.
It's a neat interaction I'll have to bring up for tomorrow.