Trick Attack with Spring Attack against an adjacent foe

[roonechr]

The Trick Attack benefit of Spring Attack states:

"If you have the trick attack class feature, you can take your movement from trick attack at any time during a trick attack with a melee weapon (instead of only before), without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack."

Is this benefit subject to the restrictions that you must move 10 feet before the attack and cannot attack a foe that was adjacent to you at the start of your turn that using Spring Attack as a full action is?

[HammerJack]

I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be.

[roonechr]

I originally assumed that as well. Then it occurred to me that when you Trick Attack with Spring Attack you are taking the trick attack full action, not the full action granted by Spring Attack, which is what the limitations apply to.

It could be read that Spring Attack has two distinct full actions that it enables:

1) As a full action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack or combat maneuver without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack, and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

2) If you have the trick attack class feature, you can take your movement from trick attack at any time during a trick attack with a melee weapon (instead of only before), without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack.

RAW is worded exactly this way; The clauses that apply the requirement to move 10 feet before the attack and prevent you from using it against an adjacent target modify only the first use, not the second. If they were meant to apply to trick attack, they more appropriately would have been stated after both uses are described.

It could very easily be that it is simply not clearly worded, and the intent is for the limitations to apply. I would argue, however, that by RAW they do not.

[Xenocrat]

I agree with you, Spring Attack doesn't work normally at all with Trick Attack. It simply provides on new option: you can Trick Attack then move (not provoking from your target), rather than move then Trick Attack. You can also use Spring Attack as normal with a non trick attack if you want to move, attack, and move again. But you can't split your movement with a Trick Attack, just shift the otherwise mandatory move then attack order.

[roonechr]

"But you can't split your movement with a Trick Attack, just shift the otherwise mandatory move then attack order."

I tend to disagree, since they could have said "you can take your movement from trick attack before or after you make the attack", but instead they said "at any time".

I do think it is unclear and your interpretation is equally valid.

I've seen discussion of this point going back quite some time. Has there never been developer comment on it? It seems like rather a big deal, since it also applies to Shot on the Run, which uses the same language and is quite popular among Operatives.

[BigNorseWolf]

Xenocrat wrote:

I agree with you, Spring Attack doesn't work normally at all with Trick Attack. It simply provides on new option: you can Trick Attack then move (not provoking from your target), rather than move then Trick Attack. You can also use Spring Attack as normal with a non trick attack if you want to move, attack, and move again. But you can't split your movement with a Trick Attack, just shift the otherwise mandatory move then attack order.

You can move trick move. There would be no need to say any order if they were going to only add one more order.

Also, since you can't spring attack someone next to you at the start of the turn, and you can only trickspring someone with a melee weapon, being able to change the order wouldn't help you. You could ONLY move trick stab anyway. If you can't move stab move the movement changes nothing.

[BigNorseWolf]

Shot on the Run (Combat)

You can move, fire a ranged weapon, and move again before your foes can react.<---- Implies before and after. If you have to decry it as rule text, see every other attempt to dismiss these as fluff that turned out to be crunch.

Benefit: As a full action, you can move up to your speed and make a single ranged attack at any point during your movement. If you have the trick attack class feature, you can take your movement from trick attack at any time during a trick attack with a ranged weapon (instead of only before).

[i]Normal: You can move only before or after an attack with a ranged weapon, not both.[i]

This would do incredibly little if it wasn't letting you move shoot move with a trick attack. Since it's using the same language of any time that would imply spring attack should work the same way.

[roonechr]

@BigNorseWolf I agree with you if, and only if, the language that applies to the primary benefits of Spring Attack and Shot on the Run also apply to the the benefit it provides to trick attack.

There is a an interpretation of the RAW, equally valid IMO, that the feats provide two distinct benefits:

1) Gain the ability to make a unique full action with certain conditions.
2) Modify the trick attack full action.

In this case, the conditions are part of the first benefit only and do not apply to the second benefit, so they are, as written:

Spring Attack: If you have the trick attack class feature, you can take your movement from trick attack at any time during a trick attack with a melee weapon (instead of only before), without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack.

Shot on the Run: If you have the trick attack class feature, you can take your movement from trick attack at any time during a trick attack with a ranged weapon (instead of only before).

My question is: Do the restrictions apply to the trick attack portion of the feat? My assumption was that they did, but the text doesn't state that.

[Xenocrat]

Allowing movement from Trick Attack "at any time during trick attack" doesn't allow you to make your attack during that movement. That's something the Spring Attack feat grants regular attacks, but that it does not grant Trick Attacks. You can take it any time, but you still only have a singular before/after your attack. You already could do it before, now you can do it after.

There's no merger of the standard Spring Attack language with Trick Attack. They're wholly separate.

So Spring Attack/Shot on the Run let you do a fighting withdrawal (attack, then move) with a Trick Attack, but that's it.

[BigNorseWolf]

Xenocrat wrote:

Allowing movement from Trick Attack "at any time during trick attack" doesn't allow you to make your attack during that movement.

By definition it does. If the attack dictates when the move happens then the movement doesn't happen at any time.

If something consists of moving and attacking and attacking either stops the movement or has to be done at the start then you cannot move at any time you can only move at a specified time. The timing of the movement in a trick attack can only be relative to the attack and the attack can only be relevant to the movement.

Quote:

There's no merger of the standard Spring Attack language with Trick Attack. They're wholly separate.

They're in the same three sentences, in the same paragraph. Right next to each other. They are merged. There's no indication of separation, at all. The definition of RAW is not one sentence at a time.

There's no reason to think that an operative gets LESS mobility out of spring attack than anyone else. Move whack move is what spring attacking IS. Denying the operative that isn't letting them spring attack, at all.

[roonechr]

The text can reasonably be interpreted multiple ways and the impact to gameplay is significant. We need a FAQ entry.

My interpretation is that the Spring Attack feat grants two benefits:

1) As a full action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack or combat maneuver without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack, and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

2) If you have the trick attack class feature, you can take your movement from trick attack at any time during a trick attack with a melee weapon (instead of only before), without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack.

The limitations placed on the special full action granted by Spring Attack are not applied when you use trick attack because you are not using the special full attack action granted by Spring Attack.

"You can take your movement from trick attack at any time during a trick attack" means that you can move, take your attack, and move again. If it meant "before or after" it would have been better to simply say "before or after".

However, I also see your points. There is definitely room for argument.

[BigNorseWolf]

Why wouldn't the prohibition apply?

The purpose of the prohibition is to keep spring attack from not having a counter. Once someone gets next to you, you can't keep doing it round after round.

I can see no reason for that prohibition to be there, and then not have it apply to operatives.

[Wesrolter]

I have the impression that it has 2 abilities.
1 for every character, the shoot or stab in the middle of a move. The other is a modification to Trick attack. So the Operative actually gets 2 benefits from it.
The limitations would be on the primary 'every man' use of the feat.
The Trick attack does not receive the same limitations, it allows the movement after the attack instead.
Despite Trick attack being a full round action, mechanically to me it is still in 2 parts. You take the move, then you get your attack. The move 'at any time' doesn't read as it can be split, it is still 1 action to be done.
With both Shot on the run and Spring attack the basic use is very specific about the attack being used during the move.

[roonechr]

"Why wouldn't the prohibition apply?"

Because there are two distinct uses, and the prohibitions are only stated for the first one.

[Squiggit]

The wording does feel weird. "At any point during" is a very strange way to phrase it if the intent is only to allow you to move afterward. They could have just said "after" and it would not only be clearer but reduce the wordcount.

But at the same time, if the intent was to let you attack during a move like spring attack, it's odd to not simply use language more similar to the first half of spring attack, because that's also very clear.

I think I have an idea how it's supposed to work, but it'd be nice to see a little clarification here.

[BigNorseWolf]

roonechr wrote:

"Why wouldn't the prohibition apply?"

Because there are two distinct uses, and the prohibitions are only stated for the first one.

So what are the requirements to take the feat? If the second part is seperate from the rest of it you're left with missing information.

Its one paragraph.. One. That sentence is neccesary for trick attack to work with spring attack at all, otherwise they're two different full round actions.

[Wesrolter]

Dex 15, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Trick attack for the second bit.
Yes, they are 2 different full round actions, there is the Spring attack everyone can use, then there is Trick attack, which is only available to operatives.

[Xenocrat]

Squiggit wrote:

The wording does feel weird. "At any point during" is a very strange way to phrase it if the intent is only to allow you to move afterward. They could have just said "after" and it would not only be clearer but reduce the wordcount.

But at the same time, if the intent was to let you attack during a move like spring attack, it's odd to not simply use language more similar to the first half of spring attack, because that's also very clear.

I think I have an idea how it's supposed to work, but it'd be nice to see a little clarification here.

They did lots of seemingly pointless future proofing (or pointless ambiguity/specificity) in the CRB.

[BigNorseWolf]

Wesrolter wrote:

Dex 15, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Trick attack for the second bit.
Yes, they are 2 different full round actions, there is the Spring attack everyone can use, then there is Trick attack, which is only available to operatives.

And nothing from before the operative part applies to the operative part? Thats really weird for one paragraph, and just not doable at all for an ability where you have

requirements that apply

text that doesn't apply
text starts applying again.

[roonechr]

"requirements that apply

text that doesn't apply
text starts applying again."

But that is not the way it's written. It is this:

1) Text that describes a unique full attack action granted by the feat.
2) Restrictions to that unique full attack action.
3) A way in which the feat modifies the trick attack full action.

There in no text after the clause relating to trick attack. When you use trick attack you are by definition not using the full attack action granted by Spring Attack, you are using the trick attack full action.

Having said that, to me the text is inconclusive; it could be reasonably interpreted either way.

We need a FAQ entry to clarify.

[BigNorseWolf]

roonechr wrote:

There in no text after the clause relating to trick attack. When you use trick attack you are by definition not using the full attack action granted by Spring Attack, you are using the trick attack full action.

That's not true. You are both spring attacking and trick attacking. While this normally wouldn't be possible , the specific language is there to allow it. Nothing remotely suggests that it negates anything that came before it.

[Xenocrat]

Quote:

Benefit: As a full action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack or combat maneuver without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack, and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn. If you have the trick attack class feature, you can take your movement from trick attack at any time during a trick attack with a melee weapon (instead of only before), without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack.

Nothing before "if you have the trick attack class feature" actually allows using trick attack, because trick attack is a full action, and spring attack gives you a different spring attack full action.

Not only is there no specific language to allow it, there's no language at all to allow it.

[Xenocrat]

Consider if we were talking about the similar Shot on the Run instead and replaced the "if you have the trick attack class feature," language with "If you have the Heavy Fire Bombard Soldier fighting style ability, you can take a guarded step."

Would you assume that the Heavy Fire ability, which is a full action, can be combined with the Shot on the Run full action, or would you understand that the only thing this feat does for you is give you a guarded step?