Questions about Brawler Close Weapon Mastery+Jotungrip

[SteelaiRizel]

I apologize if the answers to these questions and all is obvious to others but even after doing a fair bit of searching I feel like I still do not understand the concept and want to confirm everything as much as possible before proposing my idea to the DM.

This upcoming battle will be huge and there is a dam good chance of ripperoni coming my way. Especially given my health rolls and my frontline position. So i want my alternate ready to go if need be. So i will state what I intend to do, feel free to pick it apart if you will. He will be starting at lvl 10.

So what I intend to do is take 2 levels of Titan Mauler for the Jotungrip and then 8 levels of pure brawler(would be leveling only it from then on). The weapon I would be using is the fighting fan but large size. Two of them. So here is the clarifications I need.

1. From what I have read since they are large sized aka two handed originally for a medium sized character they would be considered my size right? So would work with Jotungrip correctly? What I had found was this :

Light = 2 sizes grade smaller
One Handed = 1 size grade greater
Two Handed = even size

So was my thinking correct on this?

2. Now that they are being used one in each hand and once again are applied as one handed weapons would they regain their light property? The original weapon is in the light weapon category. I don't mind either way as ill have the strength to deal with it if not. But It's important to know for TWF.

3. Now for the final question that I am really curious about. Since these are large weapons, not medium , would they scale off the medium brawler unarmed damage like other close weapons would off of Close Weapon Mastery or would they scale off the large brawler unarmed damage category? My character is medium sized but the weapons are large sized. To me it seems like it could be either way though i don't mind either.

Also to me it would make more sense if they scaled off the large brawler category due to size rather than medium. If not im fine with it as I care more about the theme than I ever do about being crazy optimal.

My character will have fun feats like Rhabdomancy and Acupuncture Specialist so yeah, theme is important, I just want to have a solid grasp of what I am doing before I make the proposition. Me and the DM have been best friends for 9 years so it will be an easy talk but I just like to do the research and have things ready so he doesn't have to do a lot of work himself.

Thank you in advance for any answers on this subject.

[Lelomenia]

Jotungrip (Ex) wrote:

At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her

Jotungrip doesn’t interact with an oversized fighting fan at all because (1) fighting fans aren’t two handed weapons and (2) oversized fighting fans aren’t “sized appropriately for you”.

So,
(1 and 2) When fighting with large fighting fans in each hand, you would treat them as one handed weapons. I think by RAW you would get a -6 penalty on all attacks, -2 from two weapon fighting, -2 from the weapon being one size inappropriate, and -2 because your offhand weapon isn’t light. Expect table variation for the third penalty though, especially if you only attack with the one fan (which you should even if you wield two for RP, so you can put all your enchants on the one you actually attack with) there’s a good chance the offhand-with-non-light issue will be ignored.

(3) That weapon damage only scales off of character size, not weapon size. A colossal greatsword would still only deal 1d6 damageif wielded by a 4th level brawler who for whatever reason was able to and chose to use his alternate damage.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Lelomenia has it right.

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed are distinct weapon categories:

Weapons wrote:

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 140

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Chapter 8). Add the wielder’s Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a onehanded weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

A weapon that is 'light' for an ogre is 'one-handed' for a human and 'two-handed' for a gnome. As such, making a 'light' weapon into a 'two-handed' weapon would require two size increases, so you are talking about a Fighting Fan intended for use by a huge creature (for whom it would be a light weapon, while a large creature could use them as one-handed weapons (with a penalty))

Jotungrip would not come into play for such weapons because they are only 'appropriately sized' for Huge creatures.

The Brawler's Close Weapon Mastery allows you to use your (reduced) unarmed strike damage instead of the weapon damage, so your actual weapon size does not come into play at all.

The baseline penalties for using a pair of these oversized fans would be:
Mainhand: -4 (size) -6 (two-weapon fighting) = -10
Offhand: -4 (size) -10 (two-weapon fighting = -14
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat will reduce these to -8/-8, but you are still probably going to have issues hitting the proverbial 'broad side of a barn.'

Since you are starting at level 10, 'normal' sized fans would be much more effective (no size penalties, two-weapon penalties reduce to -2/-2 since they are light, and the same 1d8 base damage from close weapon mastery).