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I have some questions about how and when learning new spells happens in PFS. I looked in the Guide to Organized Play but couldn't find anything.
Example: I have a level 2 Wizard.
1. My level 1 wizard started out with 5 level 1 spells known in his spellbook. When he hits level 2 he gets to add 2 more spells to the spellbook for free. Now he wants to add some more spells, using the Learn a Spell activity.
2. There is a bard in the party today who happens to know Color Spray. Even though the bard's version of the spell is Occult, and he is a spontaneous caster, my wizard can still learn it from him. Yes?
3. He needs to make an Arcana check and spend gold (amount depending on the result of the Arcana check). If he fails, he can't attempt to learn Color Spray again until gaining a level.
4. The group finds a scroll during their adventure. Can the wizard similarly use the scroll to attempt the Learn a Spell activity? Does this use up the scroll?
5. My wizard wants to learn a common spell that no one in the party knows. Does he have to first buy a scroll and then, separately, attempt the Learn a Spell activity? Or can he just learn from the presumedly friendly and unlimited fellow casters back at the Grand Lodge? In short, is there any expense to learning a spell (besides that of the Learn a Spell activity) if you don't have a fellow party member to teach you or a found scroll?
6. I saw in another thread that there was some discussion of having to get access in order to be able to Learn a Spell of even common spells from non-Core books. Has this been clarified?
7. If PF1, Divine casters "knew" their entire spell list. Even a prepared caster like a Cleric or a Druid could prepare any spell on any day. Is that not the case in 2e - does Learn A Spell apply (and work the same) for all classes and types of magic?
8. Does all of this have anything to do with Downtime (i.e. does it use any Downtime days)? It seems like no but I just want to confirm.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
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This Blog Says:
Learning Spells - Some members of the community raised questions about how their cleric and druid characters could use the new spells from the Advanced Player’s Guide. We’re happy to provide a solution! Any prepared spellcaster can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn any common spells they have access to from tutors at the Grand Lodge. This adds no additional material cost beyond the standard cost for the Learn a Spell activity.
So...
2: Yes you can learn color spray from the bard. But it also largely doesn't matter.
3: Correct
4: Doesn't use the scroll, but also largely doesn't matter.
5: Learn it from the grand lodge, don't buy a scroll
6/7: Druids/Clerics have to learn non-CRB spells before they can prepare them. No additional access needed.
8: No downtime involved. (Magical Shorthand unlocks a downtime spell learning activity, but I'll be damned if anybody actually knows how it works.)
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Ah, thanks very much. Hopefully this info will make its way into the Guide at some point.
One last question: although none of this happens during "Downtime", in practice it seems like it will often be the case that a Player will decide they want to Learn one or more spells in between game sessions. So is the way that most GMs are handling this is to just take care of any needed rolls at the start of a game session while people are mustering?
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I suppose I should add a question here for completion sake.
I have nearly 8 level's worth of Chronicles sitting unapplied that will eventually add up to make a Magus once Secrets of Magic is sanctioned. I don't know how Magi will learn their spells, but presumably it will be similar to Wizards.
Do I just make my Learn a Spell rolls as I apply my Chronicles one by one, reattempting any failed rolls as he Levels up, or is there something extra I need to be aware of?
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Shrug.
Because of the ability to learn spells cheaper on crits etc you're probably better off waiting until the end to learn all the spells rather than making attempts as you level up.
That said I don't know for sure if you could or not. I don't see any good reason to say no, but also don't see a definitive answer.
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This Blog Says:
Learning Spells - Some members of the community raised questions about how their cleric and druid characters could use the new spells from the Advanced Player’s Guide. We’re happy to provide a solution! Any prepared spellcaster can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn any common spells they have access to from tutors at the Grand Lodge. This adds no additional material cost beyond the standard cost for the Learn a Spell activity.
This is resurrecting an old post but I am completely at a loss for understanding why this ruling was instituted and what it's purpose is. It doesn't make sense relative to how all other text around Clerics and Druid spells and additional resources is written and unless you look at the FAQ or the linked blog post you are unlikely to even be aware of it.
To quote the rules for Cleric specifically in this case:
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.
And from the Character Options Page if an option is Standard access and Common rarity Your character has access to this option. As such, you should be able to freely prepare any common spells that are not explicitly listed as Limited or Restricted which are on the Divine spell list because, according to the Character Options page you have access to it.
Additionally, the act of using the Learn a Spell skill task would be redundant based on the rules because, as per the Learn a Skill rules in the CRB:
You can gain access to a new spell of your tradition from someone who knows that spell or from magical writing like a spellbook or scroll.
This states you gain access to it, but again, according to the Character Options page if it is Standard availability and Common rarity you already have access, so why would you need to perform a skill check to gain access to something you already have access to?
These rules do not seem to be intended for gaining access to common rarity options (spells or otherwise) but for gaining access to Uncommon or Rare if the opportunity should arise. And the Character Options page would appear to support this. So it is really unclear to me why prepared casters are being pushed into requiring an extra step to gaining access to spells which should seemingly already be accessible to them.
I would say perhaps this was an outdated ruling as it did come (as I recall) before the current well organized and in my opinion pretty clear Character Options page. However, this remains noted in the FAQ section as well though I had overlooked it until someone recently brought it to my attention.
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Venture-Agent, Online—VTT
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And from the Character Options Page if an option is Standard access and Common rarity Your character has access to this option
Searching the Character Options page, I do not see this quote. Is this your paraphrasing of your understanding or did I miss a quote, somewhere?
The question might seem pedantic but it is actually important. From previous discussions of exactly how this rule works and why clerics and druids need to learn common spells, my understanding is that it hinges pretty heavily on a very non-intuitive distinction: that the definition of Common in the Rarity system does not mean having gaijed Access but instead means not needing to gain Access. That's what limits the spells that can be prepared without learning to the CRB for these classes, and requires using the Learn a Spell activity to add other options to what they can prepare.
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And from the Character Options Page if an option is Standard access and Common rarity Your character has access to this optionSearching the Character Options page, I do not see this quote. Is this your paraphrasing of your understanding or did I miss a quote, somewhere?
Darius is correct.
From the chart on the Character Options page, if something is Common rarity and Standard availability, then "Your character has access to this option".
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The slightly different disconnect I've encountered as I dabble into prepared casters is the belief that Learn a Spell can't be used for Uncommon spells.
It's a very common assumption, but I see no basis for it. Learn a Spell is used solely for gaining Access, which can only mean non-Common spells.
It's like if someone told you that Elven Weapon Familiarity doesn't "actually" (air quotes) give you "Access" to the Elven Curve Blade.
You could point your finger right at the text of the feat to prove them wrong, but for some reason that doesn't work with Learn a Spell.
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And from the Character Options Page if an option is Standard access and Common rarity Your character has access to this optionSearching the Character Options page, I do not see this quote. Is this your paraphrasing of your understanding or did I miss a quote, somewhere?
The question might seem pedantic but it is actually important. From previous discussions of exactly how this rule works and why clerics and druids need to learn common spells, my understanding is that it hinges pretty heavily on a very non-intuitive distinction: that the definition of Common in the Rarity system does not mean having gaijed Access but instead means not needing to gain Access. That's what limits the spells that can be prepared without learning to the CRB for these classes, and requires using the Learn a Spell activity to add other options to what they can prepare.
The reason I didn't include it as a quoted text was because it's not directly searchable or selectable as it is part of their image on the page.. why a table is an image instead of, well, a table I don't know.
Also, if Common rarity means not needing to gain access would that not also mean Learn a Spell is moot as it simply gives you access. If you don't NEED to gain access then gaining access is unnecessary by definition. But that, I think, is moot as my link points directly to the image in which it states verbatim: Your character has access to this option.
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The reason I didn't include it as a quoted text was because it's not directly searchable or selectable as it is part of their image on the page.. why a table is an image instead of, well, a table I don't know.
Also, if Common rarity means not needing to gain access would that not also mean Learn a Spell is moot as it simply gives you access. If you don't NEED to gain access then gaining access is unnecessary by definition. But that, I think, is moot as my link points directly to the image in which it states verbatim: Your character has access to this option.
The magus just says: You choose these from the common spells on the arcane spell list or from other arcane spells you gain access to.
The summoner says the same thing: You choose these from the common spells from the tradition corresponding to your eidolon, or from other spells from that tradition to which you have access.
Oracle and Witch in the APG are similar. The restriction is Common Spells.
That text combined with the transitive chain of access/commonality regarding Cleric/Druid STRONGLY suggests that the interpretation we have now regarding paying to Learn A Spell for Common Divine spells with Divine Casters is the wrong interpretation. We now have a second non-CRB sourcebook with Common classes that have access to Common spells across all books. For CRB classes to be treated differently is nonsense.
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None of these classes are analogous to cleric and druid, I'm afraid (in that none of the other prepared casters get a book worth of known spells free, instead of a few selections from any source). A witch leveling up to level 3, for example, gains 2 spells of their choice for free, and must then must learn others (Either through scroll consumption, or through the witch's special use of Learn A Spell to create something for the familiar to consume). A druid leveling up to 3, on the other hand gains one CRB worth of second level spells for free, and must then learn others through the Learn A Spell activity.
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None of these classes are analogous to cleric and druid, I'm afraid (in that none of the other prepared casters get a book worth of known spells free, instead of a few selections from any source). A witch leveling up to level 3, for example, gains 2 spells of their choice for free, and must then must learn others (Either through scroll consumption, or through the witch's special use of Learn A Spell to create something for the familiar to consume). A druid leveling up to 3, on the other hand gains one CRB worth of second level spells for free, and must then learn others through the Learn A Spell activity.
Except there is absolutely no rules text to support this interpretation. I've even quoted rules text that suggests this is entirely wrong. Again, as I quoted before from Cleric it states: or from other divine spells to which you gain access.
And the Society Guide explicitly states, if it is standard availability and common rarity Your character has access to this option.
Those two rules combined quite clearly indicate you should be able to prepare any common spell from any book you have access to that is of standard availability. This makes this ruling very confusing and unclear at the very least and if for whatever reason this is the intended way to operate spells then nit really should be clearly defined in the Society Guide that simply having access to a spell does not mean you are able to prepare and use that spell.
As a further note, while you state this is to balance Cleric and Druid because they have access to the entire list and not just a subset unlike many other casters. As worded in the FAQ this would impact Wizards as well, and any other prepared caster. A wizard could only gain new spells from leveling up from the CRB. Anything outside of the CRB they would need to pay for and use Learn a Spell to add it to their spellbook. This seems like an unnecessary penalty for the Wizard when the Sorcerer, Oracle, and Bard are not subjected to this limitation.
All in all, I think it was a solution thought up at a time before they finalized and clarified their access rules and needs to at the very least be re-evaluated and clarified in their Character Options rules and not in a FAQ. Or, in my opinion more appropriately, removed.
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Just realized that the original Blog discussion on this is locked =\
Since Blogs can be edited now, the best way to handle this would be to revisit the original Blog, strikethrough the conflicting and erroneous paragraph, and include an "Edit" statement immediately after it clarifying that it was a product of misunderstanding the rules at the time.
Otherwise it will continue to be referenced forever.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Honestly, the main issue is that while org play is using this rule, it is supposed to be a general rule, not one made for org play, or at least that is my understanding. Basically, this isn't an org play rule and likely could use a FAQ at some point.
I personally ignore this rule and a lot of the access rules in my adventure mode home games though.
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Just realized that the original Blog discussion on this is locked =\
Since Blogs can be edited now, the best way to handle this would be to revisit the original Blog, strikethrough the conflicting and erroneous paragraph, and include an "Edit" statement immediately after it clarifying that it was a product of misunderstanding the rules at the time.
Otherwise it will continue to be referenced forever.
Perhaps I am missing something but I do not appear to have the option to edit a blog post. And since it was locked is why I commented here. It seems likely the blog post would get more visibility from Organized Play administrators to get official clarity.
Right now the problem is that it exists in the FAQ as a rules clarification, one I imagine many people over look. It seems to conflict with their other rules documentation and has no really indication as to what the reasoning is that they would need these extra steps for common spells.
Honestly, the main issue is that while org play is using this rule, it is supposed to be a general rule, not one made for org play, or at least that is my understanding. Basically, this isn't an org play rule and likely could use a FAQ at some point.
I don't personally feel there is anything in the core book or any other book to suggest that players should need to do anything special to access common rarity options even the definition of the Common trait from the CRB does not lend to this as it reads:
common (trait) Anything that doesn’t list another rarity trait (uncommon, rare, or unique) automatically has the common trait. This rarity indicates that an ability, item, or spell is available to all players who meet the prerequisites for it.
This would suggest, if you meet any other listed prerequisites you have access to it. Of course your GM may rule otherwise and that is 100% within their purview as the GM, it is their game. In the case of PFS that role is taken by the PFS Administration/Organizers and they certainly have the right to do so but some explanation as to why this ruling is in place or if it is an error and should be removed (given how hard updating things on their site is that is a possibility, that it hasn't been removed yet or the FAQ entry was overlooked in error and is in need of modification or removal). So, as best I can tell, in the absence of any other ruling if it is common you are able to access it as per RAW. PFS FAQ presents an alternate ruling for organized play however.
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Did they post their blogs on the blockchain or something?The Blogs aren't a wiki. I meant it can be revisited and edited by Paizo.
That wasn't possible years back.
At one time they were likely static pages under a given part of the site structure and so updating them wasn't particularly easy for the average company member and required an update of the page by someone from the website team specifically. The site is pretty antiquated and really needs a major update.
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Most people just don't care. Very few (significantly few) audits are done these days. Players are going to select the spells that want. The administration required to manage this issue is unnecessarily restrictive, time consuming and adversarial. Many of us are simply not going to question a player's spell choices and couldn't care less how they acquired an otherwise commonly available spell. YMMV
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Honestly, the main issue is that while org play is using this rule, it is supposed to be a general rule, not one made for org play, or at least that is my understanding. Basically, this isn't an org play rule and likely could use a FAQ at some point.
It is an Org Play only rule, from the Blog I linked up thread, which is why people want the Blog changed. It conflicts with not only the Core rules, but also the Society chart that determines Access.
I'm convinced it's one of those cases where the playerbase knows the rules better than the Paizo people do.
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Honestly, the main issue is that while org play is using this rule, it is supposed to be a general rule, not one made for org play, or at least that is my understanding. Basically, this isn't an org play rule and likely could use a FAQ at some point.It is an Org Play only rule, from the Blog I linked up thread, which is why people want the Blog changed. It conflicts with not only the Core rules, but also the Society chart that determines Access.
I'm convinced it's one of those cases where the playerbase knows the rules better than the Paizo people do.
This does depend on a few things to be fair. The main one being the definition of "access" in the Character Options page. One person posted something that then got removed it seems but it was the one pointer that did make the pieces fit.
If I play devil's advocate here and we go with the one alternate possibility that access on the Character Options page does not grant Access the keyword but just means the content is available to be referenced, then we also use that perspective on the common trait definition which does use the available term instead of the word access. It CAN be interpreted in the way that the organized play staff appear to have done.
In this scenario, all options of common rarity and standard availability are available to your character but access is not automatically granted then most rules options are available to all characters because none of them have any restrictive text to them. Most spell casters then also have access to most spells as their spellcasting ability simply states you choose spells known from the common spells of your tradition (paraphrased). But Cleric, Druid and to a degree wizard have that limiting text in their class abilities of spells "from this book" or any others you have access (the keyword) to.
In this interpretation, this would mean that having to learn a spell to add anything outside of the core rule book would be necessary to grant access (keyword) to that spell. Wizards are a little more complex because this is only listed explicitly at first level. Subsequent levels it says you add 2 spells "you can cast" to your spellbook. Which is pretty open terminology which could use some clarity in it's own right as to how it works in this regard.
So, I am not certain this is anyone knowing the rules better than anyone else. It is simply 1) a seemingly unnecessary restriction and 2) potential confusion over use of a word in two different ways.
It's an unclear case open to interpretation and could use clarity either way from the Organized Play Staff. More than a FAQ entry but something in the document itself delineating exactly what "access" means in their document especially as it pertains to spells. And more to the point, the choice to use some very specific yet rather confusing wording for a few classes in the CRB. If Cleric, Druid and Wizard didn't have this limiting text in them it wouldn't be a point of contention either. Which does lead one to believe there is a reason they are worded in this very specific way when no other class is.
I still think this seems an unnecessary burden of spending money and making rolls to see if you can get an "available" spell which you would like to use. Wizards are guaranteed a certain number free and only go through this for extras. Druids and Clerics have to go through this for any new spells they want access to at all. Spontaneous casters just get to pick them whenever they could pick other spells. And then the player must track these successfully obtained additional spells in some way that could be audited if a GM were to decide to do so. Presumably in the notes of the chronicle sheet where a GM witnessed this roll. But then does that mean they can not start the game at level 1 with any spells outside of the CRB? Or does a GM need to witness one or more rolls before starting their first game, thus bogging down the start of the game for everyone else? It's just cumbersome for very little gain/reason that I can see.
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And then the player must track these successfully obtained additional spells in some way that could be audited if a GM were to decide to do so. Presumably in the notes of the chronicle sheet where a GM witnessed this roll. But then does that mean they can not start the game at level 1 with any spells outside of the CRB? Or does a GM need to witness one or more rolls before starting their first game, thus bogging down the start of the game for everyone else?
All of these rolls are handled by the player, with no GM oversight required, but records (such as notes on the Chronicle, or an updated spreadsheet, or screenshots) need to be readily available in the rare case that you are audited.
You can have these spells before your first game in the same manner that you can purchase non-Core gear before your first game.
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And then the player must track these successfully obtained additional spells in some way that could be audited if a GM were to decide to do so. Presumably in the notes of the chronicle sheet where a GM witnessed this roll. But then does that mean they can not start the game at level 1 with any spells outside of the CRB? Or does a GM need to witness one or more rolls before starting their first game, thus bogging down the start of the game for everyone else?All of these rolls are handled by the player, with no GM oversight required, but records (such as notes on the Chronicle, or an updated spreadsheet, or screenshots) need to be readily available in the rare case that you are audited.
You can have these spells before your first game in the same manner that you can purchase non-Core gear before your first game.
Makes sense.. since I've not really personally dealt with anything needing to be rolled for before the first game wasn't sure how they best like to handle that.. though it is nice that they aren't looking for GMs to initial everything. The whole chronicle filling process can be a bit cumbersome as it is. The new chronicles definitely make this a lot easier, though to some degree I do miss the running totals, but with online chronicles being more and more common and not everyone being able to edit the PDF themselves, that was a lot to fill out and a lot of space for errors on the GM part after every game. These new chronicles are nice and quick.
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In the Learn a Spell activity it clarifies the flavor text by replacing "gain access" with "learn" in the results section:
Critical Success: You expend half the materials and learn the spell.
Success: You expend the materials and learn the spell.
Failure: You fail to learn the spell but can try again after you gain a level. The materials aren’t expended.
Critical: Failure As failure, plus you expend half the materials.