Lost Omens Ancestry Guide pg.139
“A weapon with the hampering trait is designed to be shaken, cast outward, or whipped about to control space on the battlefield. You can use an Interact action to thrash the weapon in a square within the weapon's reach. That square becomes difficult terrain until you attack with the weapon, move, or would otherwise stop intentionally thrashing it.”
So how does this work exactly regarding duration? If a character uses the third action point to ‘hamper’ an area, how long does that last? Until the end of the character’s turn? At the beginning of the character’s next turn? Perhaps it lasts indefinitely until the character moves, attacks, or otherwise just decides to stop?
As the whip claw is the closest weapon yet to a kusarigama and it was my preferred weapon playing Nioh, I have some character ideas...
Mechanically it stops at the start of you next turn. If you want to keep Hampering that square you need to spend at last one action to "intentionally thrash" it. So you could attack twice and Hamper each round to keep it up at all times.
That made the most sense to me, but wording wasn’t clear.
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Wait, why would it stop at the start of your next turn? What implies that?
The description for the trait explicitly states the conditions when the difficult terrain stops: when you attack with the hampering weapon, move or intentionally stop thrashing it.
I can't see how you can read that as anything other than, the difficult terrain lasts until you fulfil the criteria that cause it to end. It otherwise lasts indefinitely.
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Wait, why would it stop at the start of your next turn? What implies that?
The description for the trait explicitly states the conditions when the difficult terrain stops: when you attack with the hampering weapon, move or intentionally stop thrashing it.
I can't see how you can read that as anything other than, the difficult terrain lasts until you fulfil the criteria that cause it to end. It otherwise lasts indefinitely.
Unless you use an action each round to continue it, you are deciding to stop intentionally thrashing it. What you're saying I can Hamper a square, then start casting spells with all three actions every round and I will still be Hampering that same square. That just doesn't make sense.
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I don't see it that way CK: It seems that if that were the case then it would indicate that it automatically ends at one specific point much like every other ability that applies a standing effect like this, but instead, it doesn't, it works much more along the lines of how Stances function, they're "turned on" and they are in effect until you do something to "break" the stance, in this case, that would be attacking with that specific weapon you used, move from your space, or decide that you're just NOT thrashing the weapon about.
So long as you don't meet one of those three "end conditions" it keeps going forever.
PF2E's pretty prescriptive. If it required you to continue spending the action every round, it would say so. If it ended at the start of the next turn, it would say so. Presumably wiggling the hampering weapon doesn't take any attention and is done while you're doing other things. So long as that hand remains wielding the hampering weapon.
That said, I wouldn't begrudge a GM that ruled that it only lasted for 1 round.
If we're talking irl logic, then it makes sense it would stop at the start of your next turn (though, that wasn't the question asked).
However, if we're talking RAW, then it doesn't say that it stops at a given point in time, nor does it have a key word that would imply duration, like how certain spells have sustain. There is just as much backing for it stopping after 1 round by RAW as there is for it lasting 2 rounds, 1 minute, or some other duration. If no duration is listed then it's safe to assume that it is an instantaneous effect or an indefinite one, and the effect would literally do nothing if it was instantaneous.
I'd also like to point out that it only does this to a single square, so from a balance perspective it makes sense that they'd allow it to keep being done if you don't move, strike, or have to use that hand for something else (or stop intentionally thrashing it). Though, if I'm correct about their intention with RAW it would probably make more thematic sense if it was defined as a free action to keep it up for the next turn rather than it just happening. It would be essentially the same mechanically, but thematically more appropriate.
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I don't see it that way CK: It seems that if that were the case then it would indicate that it automatically ends at one specific point much like every other ability that applies a standing effect like this, but instead, it doesn't, it works much more along the lines of how Stances function, they're "turned on" and they are in effect until you do something to "break" the stance, in this case, that would be attacking with that specific weapon you used, move from your space, or decide that you're just NOT thrashing the weapon about.
So long as you don't meet one of those three "end conditions" it keeps going forever.
One generally cannot cast spells with both hands occupied and the only weapon with the hampering trait requires two hands. Therefore, that wouldn’t be a possible issue...yet.
Actually, I think the stance analogy may be more applicable. Hmm. I may have to run thru possible scenarios to see which version makes more sense in play.
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I don't see it that way CK: It seems that if that were the case then it would indicate that it automatically ends at one specific point much like every other ability that applies a standing effect like this, but instead, it doesn't, it works much more along the lines of how Stances function, they're "turned on" and they are in effect until you do something to "break" the stance, in this case, that would be attacking with that specific weapon you used, move from your space, or decide that you're just NOT thrashing the weapon about.
So long as you don't meet one of those three "end conditions" it keeps going forever.
The "intentionally thrashing" part implies that you must make the conscious decision to keep it going. On top of that, the whole process of the action is that you are interacting with the weapon to make it thrash. To say you only have to interact once and then you can continue waving your arms around to make the movements required to continue the ability without spending more interact actions is ridiculous.
Also you can't really compare this to a stance. You are actively moving your arms around for this ability, not simply standing in a specific way.
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One generally cannot cast spells with both hands occupied and the only weapon with the hampering trait requires two hands. Therefore, that wouldn’t be a possible issue...yet.
You can 100% cast spells with both hands occupied.
Somatic Components
"A somatic component is a specific hand movement or gesture that generates a magical nexus. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to make gestures. You can use this component while holding something in your hand, but not if you are restrained or otherwise unable to gesture freely."
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A stance is a pretty good way to think about it.
One generally cannot cast spells with both hands occupied and the only weapon with the hampering trait requires two hands. Therefore, that wouldn’t be a possible issue...yet.You can 100% cast spells with both hands occupied.
Somatic Components
"A somatic component is a specific hand movement or gesture that generates a magical nexus. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to make gestures. You can use this component while holding something in your hand, but not if you are restrained or otherwise unable to gesture freely."
The “gesture freely” part may be the specific factor that precludes the continuation of hampering without another action expenditure. An argument can be made that continuing the hampering motion would prevent gesturing freely to cast. Otherwise, I guess occupied hands is not the issue.
Still, that would only help the case that the effect of the action would continue without need of more actions due to pragmatic play.
I don’t know either way. Without errata, I can only guess as to what is best based on how it plays out in actual play.
Let me just say one more thing, because I think it's the key here, and then pretty much all the points that I can make have already been made:
clears throat "Flavor text is not rules."
If it were like a Stance, then if I'm grabbed I can continue the hampering without making flat checks. Hell, I can even continue if paralyzed. Neither of these conditions would end a stance.
Both these make no sense.
It's like a stance in that there are ONLY specific things that can knock out out of them. "until you attack with the weapon, move, or would otherwise stop intentionally thrashing it" is pretty clear. Now you still have to have the weapon [it's a weapon trait], so anything that causes you to drop the weapon would also work so at least you stop if you're dead.
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Why is grabbed a problem? Grabbed doesn't stop you from making any other attacks, be it one or two-handed so I don't know why that factors into things. The condition isn't nearly as punishing as previous edition predecessors and represents grabbing someone's clothing or body so they'd need to push squirm away.
As for being paralyzed, I think that would fall under the "otherwise stop intentionally thrashing" given that you're preventing from physically acting or taking actions altogether.
I think there is plenty of reason to ask for clarification on this though as it is somewhat ambiguous.
As for being paralyzed, I think that would fall under the "otherwise stop intentionally thrashing" given that you're preventing from physically acting or taking actions altogether.
Well, In guess it could be intentional if you are the one that caused yourself to be paralyzed. ;
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Why is grabbed a problem? Grabbed doesn't stop you from making any other attacks, be it one or two-handed so I don't know why that factors into things. The condition isn't nearly as punishing as previous edition predecessors and represents grabbing someone's clothing or body so they'd need to push squirm away.
Because you have to make a flat check to do any Manipulate actions. Being grabbed would force a flat check if you're starting it, but not on subsequent turns?
As for being paralyzed, I think that would fall under the "otherwise stop intentionally thrashing" given that you're preventing from physically acting or taking actions altogether.
But you aren't "intentionally" stopping. You equate it to a stance but then change the rules when given a point that counters that suggestion? It's either an on/off ability, or something you have to constantly use an action on each round to keep up. If it's on/off it would stay on when paralyzed, just like a stance would.
Because you have to make a flat check to do any Manipulate actions. Being grabbed would force a flat check if you're starting it, but not on subsequent turns?
Yep, that's 100% correct. If it was a continuous manipulate activity, anyone with Attack of Opportunity could just walk up them and use it
If it's on/off it would stay on when paralyzed, just like a stance would.
Yep. You're playing hopscotch until you move, attack with that weapon or tell the DM 'I'm going to stop thrashing'.
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Paralyzed is actually a unique case where I think it's more than reasonable to say you can't keep doing it while paralyzed. After all, paralyzed doesn't only mention not being able to take actions. The exact text is:
Your body is frozen in place. You have the flat-footed condition and can't act except to Recall Knowledge and use actions that require only the use of your mind (as determined by the GM). Your senses still function, but only in the areas you can perceive without moving your body, so you can't Seek while paralyzed.
Note that they could've easily left it at the back half of that part of the sentence and said "can't use actions other than Recall Knowledge or other actions that require only the use of you mind"
But it doesn't. It says you can't act. Like, do anything. No actions, reactions, free actions, or anything else that might require you to use your body. Thrashing your weapon around sounds like it falls in that category. I could attempt to intentionally keep thrashing the weapon by sending signals to my brain that would move my hand in the appropriate fashion without using an action, but doing that would result in nothing happening, because your body can't respond to anything your mind tells it to do. I.e., you're paralyzed.
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Paralyzed is actually a unique case where I think it's more than reasonable to say you can't keep doing it while paralyzed. After all, paralyzed doesn't only mention not being able to take actions. The exact text is:
Your body is frozen in place. You have the flat-footed condition and can't act except to Recall Knowledge and use actions that require only the use of your mind (as determined by the GM). Your senses still function, but only in the areas you can perceive without moving your body, so you can't Seek while paralyzed.Note that they could've easily left it at the back half of that part of the sentence and said "can't use actions other than Recall Knowledge or other actions that require only the use of you mind"
But it doesn't. It says you can't act. Like, do anything. No actions, reactions, free actions, or anything else that might require you to use your body. Thrashing your weapon around sounds like it falls in that category. I could attempt to intentionally keep thrashing the weapon by sending signals to my brain that would move my hand in the appropriate fashion without using an action, but doing that would result in nothing happening, because your body can't respond to anything your mind tells it to do. I.e., you're paralyzed.
Yep, that's the problem. Some people are 100% certain that it stays forever, thus you're not acting to maintain it, meaning it stays when paralyzed even though you're unable to "intentionally" thrash it.
RAW it's a very poorly worded ability. I read the "stop intentionally thrashing" part as you needing to make a conscious decision each round to continue the action, which is an interact action. This would prevent stupid things like "I'm paralyzed by my weapon keeps thrashing about in that square, even though I can't move!".
I like the stance analogy a lot, it makes sense to spend an action to start it but also to not have to spend actions to keep it going.
You're spinning the weapon but to keep it spinning doesn't take much effort.
Now I just wish there was a stance that'd allow you to attack while hampering.
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I read the "stop intentionally thrashing" part as you needing to make a conscious decision each round to continue the action, which is an interact action.
I can honestly say I have no idea how you can read it that way. Nothing in the description hints at any action required other that the initial one.
RAW it's a very poorly worded ability.
Now this I can agree with you on. It's just that poorly worded doesn't mean you can add things to it to make it read better to yourself. It is what it is.
Now I just wish there was a stance that'd allow you to attack while hampering.
Give your familiar a tiny version of the weapon.
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I like the stance analogy a lot, it makes sense to spend an action to start it but also to not have to spend actions to keep it going.
You're spinning the weapon but to keep it spinning doesn't take much effort.Now I just wish there was a stance that'd allow you to attack while hampering.
Bladed Hoop is a similar weapon, it requires a free action to keep it spinning. If Hampering just had the line "You can keep hampering as a free action each round" it would be totally fine, because at least then it has an explanation on HOW to maintain the physical action you are doing. It would prevent you from maintaining it while paralyzed and stunned. You would need to make the flat check if grabbed or restrained. It would also trigger reactions and give enemies a chance to stop you from doing it.
As it's worded now, there's not really a way to stop it.
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After reading the trait many times and this thread, I also think it's handled like a stance. At first, I'd rule it like sustaining a spell but it really reads like "action to start, then automatically".
But I'd also would let outside factors like being paralized stop it. I think the reading that you have to "intentionally want to stop it" doesn't hold up because then the weapon would also continue thrashing when you die. If you would be for some reason unable to execute the thrashing in a useful manner it stops. Be that being paralyzed, the weapon being disarmed, you being disintegrated, you and the weapon turning incorporal, you turning tiny with reduced reach... it's not only dependent on the user's will.
the weapon would also continue thrashing when you die.
No worries here as Unconscious, Dying, ect cause you to "drop items you are wielding or holding". You can't have/use a weapon trait without the weapon the trait is from wielded: for instance, you can't claim the Parry bonus from a bo staff after being disarmed.
the weapon would also continue thrashing when you die.No worries here as Unconscious, Dying, ect cause you to "drop items you are wielding or holding". You can't have/use a weapon trait without the weapon the trait is from wielded: for instance, you can't claim the Parry bonus from a bo staff after being disarmed.
Right. Petrified then :) Edit: Or failed against a lvl 1 Sleep spell.
Petrified then :)
Yep, good to go.
Edit: Or failed against a lvl 1 Sleep spell.
Nope. Sleep: Failure The creature falls unconscious. Unconscious: When you gain this condition, you fall prone and drop items you are wielding or holding.
Petrified then :)Yep, good to go.
Edit: Or failed against a lvl 1 Sleep spell.Nope. Sleep: Failure The creature falls unconscious. Unconscious: When you gain this condition, you fall prone and drop items you are wielding or holding.
Ha, you activated my trap card! :D
A creature that falls unconscious from this spell doesn’t fall prone or release what it’s holding.
That's why I specified lvl 1 Sleep. Only the lvl 4 Sleep makes them normal-unconscious.
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I read the “intentionally thrash” part as an ambiguous catch all for things that make you unable to physically act however you want - controlled, stunned, unconscious, etc.
So it functions as a stance that lasts until you attack, until the square leaves your reach or until you can’t act how you please.
Both "it lasts indefinitely" (like a Stance) and "it lasts until the beginning of your next turn" have the same issue w/ being interrupted by an effect. It's just that one has a longer window to interrupt than the other one does. So I don't see how referencing that helps solving which of the two is the correct reading. Either one would be weird to continue after being turned to stone (et al).
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As for my opinion, I assumed it would only last a round like Parry except this, "That square becomes difficult terrain until you attack with the weapon, move, or would otherwise stop intentionally thrashing it." seems a thorough list and Paizo's generous with tagging on "...until the start of your next turn." which it didn't do here.
And all those interrupting effects seem to be the kind that rob one of agency, or ability to have intent.
Also "intentionally" should not have been placed in between "stop" and "thrashing it" since it could modify either, yet standard inflection/use would apply it to the latter. So one wouldn't have to intentionally stop for this to end, but could be stopped (from intentionally thrashing it) or if one loses the intent (due to being statue w/ no intent now) it would also end. Yes, awkward due to adverb placement. :/
I read the “intentionally thrash” part as an ambiguous catch all for things that make you unable to physically act however you want - controlled, stunned, unconscious, etc.
So it functions as a stance that lasts until you attack, until the square leaves your reach or until you can’t act how you please.
Well said. Almost like that's what they should've said if that's what they meant. Oh, wait, they did. Though, I'll admit: there is some grey area in the "can't act how you please" part of that interpretation, and it may depend on the GM in some scenarios. Not that there's anything wrong with that. A little common sense GM interpretation is always going to be necessary from time to time in TTRPGs
One thing I like to do, when I see something in a game that I think is oddly worded is try to think of a better way to word it with different interpretations. Both of the other interpretations have very simple and easy ways to describe them. If it ended at the start of your next turn, then they could add words "until the start of your next turn", which is an incredibly common practice. If it couldn't be halted by someone else as long as you're holding the weapon, then it could reword "or would otherwise stop intentionally thrashing it" to "or choose to stop hampering that square" even saying "or intentionally stop thrashing it" would even be clearer. Basically, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they wrote what they meant. After all, if they didn't write what they meant correctly, then what's the point of looking at RAW anyway?
Petrified then :)Yep, good to go.
Edit: Or failed against a lvl 1 Sleep spell.Nope. Sleep: Failure The creature falls unconscious. Unconscious: When you gain this condition, you fall prone and drop items you are wielding or holding.Ha, you activated my trap card! :D
A creature that falls unconscious from this spell doesn’t fall prone or release what it’s holding.That's why I specified lvl 1 Sleep. Only the lvl 4 Sleep makes them normal-unconscious.
Hmmm... I didn't recall it's giving not-unconscious unconscious... Okay then ;)
Hmmm... I didn't recall it's giving not-unconscious unconscious... Okay then ;)Petrified then :)Yep, good to go.
Edit: Or failed against a lvl 1 Sleep spell.Nope. Sleep: Failure The creature falls unconscious. Unconscious: When you gain this condition, you fall prone and drop items you are wielding or holding.Ha, you activated my trap card! :D
A creature that falls unconscious from this spell doesn’t fall prone or release what it’s holding.That's why I specified lvl 1 Sleep. Only the lvl 4 Sleep makes them normal-unconscious.
It’s that in between time of sleepiness when you are actively doing the things that you’re doing in your sleep. Eg. Sleep walking
/shrug