Ability to deal lethal AND nonlethal damage at the same time, from the same source. Need help fine tuning it, plus figuring out how to make it available to players?

[Reksew_Trebla]

So here is what I've come up with: You take a -2 ( maybe -4, not sure) penalty to the attack roll, in addition to the -4 for dealing lethal damage with a nonlethal weapon/dealing nonlethal with a lethal weapon (if it is with a weapon like unarmed strikes when you have Improved Unarmed Strikes, you only take the -2 (or -4, still not sure which would be more balanced)). In exchange for this, you deal the damage twice, once as lethal, once as nonlethal.

I think making this either a feat or weapon special ability would be best, but I'm unsure of what the prerequisites of the feat should be, or what the effective enhancement bonus (or maybe flat cost) should be.

There is no real point to this. I just think it'd be cool to deal nonlethal damage in addition to lethal damage, by putting a little more oomph into the attack.

EDIT: I just realized this could be broken with the Deadly (and maybe Merciful) enchantments, so it should probably be a weapon enchantment, and have a clause saying it can't also be a Deadly (and maybe Merciful) weapon.

EDIT 2: Forgot to mention it would be all or nothing. Either you have the enchantment on for all attacks or you have it off. If I choose to make it a feat, it would last like Power Attack.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The way you are looking to do this is incredibly overpowered. Basically you take a penalty to attack and deal double damage. Other than using a game mechanic to take something out quicker there is no reason for this. The rules for nonlethal damage mean that by doing regular damage at the same time you are reducing the threshold of unconsciousness. That makes it way too easy to knock out a character. Once they are knocked out you can use a coup de grace and kill the target.

If there is a reason for dealing both types of damage other than to take out the target in half the time you could split the damage instead of rolling twice. What that reason would be I have no idea.

When combined with an attack with a large damage bonus this is going to be devastating and every character and creature will want it. This is even beyond the power level of a mythic campaign.

[Reksew_Trebla]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The way you are looking to do this is incredibly overpowered. Basically you take a penalty to attack and deal double damage. Other than using a game mechanic to take something out quicker there is no reason for this. The rules for nonlethal damage mean that by doing regular damage at the same time you are reducing the threshold of unconsciousness. That makes it way too easy to knock out a character. Once they are knocked out you can use a coup de grace and kill the target.

If there is a reason for dealing both types of damage other than to take out the target in half the time you could split the damage instead of rolling twice. What that reason would be I have no idea.

will want it. This is even beyond the power level of a mythic campaign.

I forgot to say it would be on for either all your attacks that turn, or none, like Power Attack (if feat), or Flaming (if enchantment). So yes, you could end fights faster, if you actually hit with more than half of your attacks. Since for most characters, that is a -8 penalty to the attack roll, they are going to have a hard time hitting with their iterative attacks. Even Power Attack doesn't give a -8 to attacks, and I've seen some people struggle to hit with some of their later iteratives when using it.

That said, it won't be a "free" feat. I would put it behind a feat chain. Not sure what feats though, but I'm sure Power Attack would be one of them. It won't be a cheap enchantment either, if I go that route instead. It would be a +5, maybe even a +6, enchantment. That's a significant amount of gp cost, even if it is otherwise just a +1 weapon.

Oh, also, it would only be with melee and thrown weapons.

Jeez, I forgot to say a lot of it.

[Mysterious Stranger]

This is either going to be way over powered or completely worthless. There are a lot of ways to avoid the -4 for dealing nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes are normally nonlethal damage, but monks can deal lethal damage with them. There are also a few feats and even traits that allow you to do ignore the penalty. For those that can make it work it would be an absolute must have in any campaign that allowed it.

With this you will often one shot things so your second don’t really matter. This is basically an improved version of mythic vital strike. Unlike mythic vital strike you still get more attacks.

Take furious focus and now your chance of hitting on the first hit are pretty good. Virtuous Creed or Divine Fighting Technique (Sarenrae’s Mercy) Eliminate the penalty for nonlethal damage. Now have the character doing this be a paladin with smite evil who gets CHA to hit and level to damage. If both damages multiply on a critical hit only things that are immune to nonlethal damage are going to survive the first hit.

This is simply too easy to exploit and does not really make any sense. There is already several feats in the game where you trade accuracy for damage. How would you describe this ability without using game mechanics that does not duplicate power attack or other such abilities?

This is really bad idea.

[Name Violation]

sap adept/master rogues get a massive upgrade?

Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.

Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.

[Quixote]

What is the objective of this hack? What problem within the existing rules are you trying to fix/what is missing from the existing rules that you're trying to add?