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It is no overwrite - both apply and it is a d10.
Greatpick is d10 fatal d12
With grasping reach it becomes
Greatpick d8 reach,fatal d10
Overwriting fatal would be
Greatpick d8 reach fatal d10 which shouldn’t be the case.
I see no problem applying both
Greatpick d8 reach, fatal d12
Would partially ignore grasping reach on the other hand. I cannot see a reason to apply it on one damage due and not on the other.
What about the other way around - say, a Champion of Nethys wielding his staff in two hands. Is the staff a d10 weapon?
The Deadly trait specifically says "An ability that changes the size of the weapon’s normal damage dice doesn’t change the size of its deadly die.", and the somewhat similar Fatal trait says nothing to contradict that, while the damage die drop from Grasping Reach makes no mention of also reducing the size of a trait (which is probably part of why it requires two-handing) and the die-size-change rule in Weapon Statistics simply says that you can only increase a weapon's die size once.
So, I'm pretty sure a greatpick used with Grasping Reach still changes to d12 when you crit, and when you two-hand a weapon with its die size buffed by Deific Weapon it still only changes to the size listed in the trait, d8.
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What about the other way around - say, a Champion of Nethys wielding his staff in two hands. Is the staff a d10 weapon?That is pretty cut and dried. Staff in two hands is d8, increase one step for deific weapon, decrease one step for grasping reach. Still d8.
Well no I wasn't talking about Grasping Reach, I was pointing out the reverse of the question (if an effect increases base die size then does that also affect the Two-Hand property). I've seen people argue that Two-Hand doesn't get affected by Deific Weapon before, such as...
The Deadly trait specifically says "An ability that changes the size of the weapon’s normal damage dice doesn’t change the size of its deadly die.", and the somewhat similar Fatal trait says nothing to contradict that, while the damage die drop from Grasping Reach makes no mention of also reducing the size of a trait (which is probably part of why it requires two-handing) and the die-size-change rule in Weapon Statistics simply says that you can only increase a weapon's die size once.
So, I'm pretty sure a greatpick used with Grasping Reach still changes to d12 when you crit, and when you two-hand a weapon with its die size buffed by Deific Weapon it still only changes to the size listed in the trait, d8.
I don't think this argument holds water since you're assuming rules that don't exist. If anything, the fact that Deadly writes in a specific exception where Fatal and Two-Hand do not would indicate that the latter traits work differently. Which makes sense, since Fatal and Two-Hand are scalers on the base die where Deadly is a separate dice roll entirely.
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Grasping reach states "This grasp is less stable and powerful than a typical grip, reducing the weapon’s damage die by 1 step."
This applies whatever the size of the dice unless a rule specifies otherwise, such as deadly's text "An ability that changes the size of the weapon’s normal damage dice doesn’t change the size of its deadly die."
So Fatal d12 becomes Fatal d10.
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https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=312
If you follow the steps of the checks:
Step 1: Roll d20 and Identify the Modifiers, Bonuses, and Penalties that Apply
Graspping reach triggers here
Step 2: Calculate the Result
Step 3: Compare the Result to the DC
Step 4: Determine the Degree of Success
Fatal Triggers here.
Increases to X will override the any reduction previously applied, including grasping reach.
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https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=312
If you follow the steps of the checks:Step 1: Roll d20 and Identify the Modifiers, Bonuses, and Penalties that Apply
Graspping reach triggers hereStep 2: Calculate the Result
Step 3: Compare the Result to the DCStep 4: Determine the Degree of Success
Fatal Triggers here.Increases to X will override the any reduction previously applied, including grasping reach.
Both Grasping Reach and Fatal actually apply at the same step, when you roll the Damage Die which is the first step of the Damage Rules. Fatal just looks at previous info to make the determination of whether or not to trigger.
I'm on the side of lowering the base damage die of the weapon to one under the Fatal value, BUT keeping the additional fatal die the same. This is more in line with how Deadly works too. So with a Striking Great Pick it would be 2d10*2+1d12. You aren't actually changing the Fatal trait in this way. You increase your base damage die and add a new one, as Fatal instructs, then you reduce your base damage die by one step, as Grasping Reach instructs.
I feel like this is the best compromise to this discussion.
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The fatal trait includes a die size. On a critical hit, the weapon’s damage die increases to that die size instead of the normal die size, and the weapon adds one additional damage die of the listed size.
Weapons wielded in your extended grasp gain reach of 10 feet. This grasp is less stable and powerful than a typical grip, reducing the weapon’s damage die by 1 step.
I would rule that because the grasping reach applies in all cases typically and that fatal only comes in when the weapon crits, grasping reach would be applied first when considering this combination.
From a slightly different perspective, it seems that the 'normal die size' is explicitly overridden by the fatal trait. I interpret 'normal die size' to mean whatever damage the weapon typically deals on a hit, which would be the d8s for a great pick when held with grasping reach.
Also, this is an extra 2+ points of expected damage only on crits. It's hardly going to break the game balance, so I think its fine allowing a player to try and mitigate the penalty from grasping reach with this combo.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=312
If you follow the steps of the checks:Step 1: Roll d20 and Identify the Modifiers, Bonuses, and Penalties that Apply
Graspping reach triggers hereStep 2: Calculate the Result
Step 3: Compare the Result to the DCStep 4: Determine the Degree of Success
Fatal Triggers here.Increases to X will override the any reduction previously applied, including grasping reach.
Both Grasping Reach and Fatal actually apply at the same step, when you roll the Damage Die which is the first step of the Damage Rules. Fatal just looks at previous info to make the determination of whether or not to trigger.
I'm on the side of lowering the base damage die of the weapon to one under the Fatal value, BUT keeping the additional fatal die the same. This is more in line with how Deadly works too. So with a Striking Great Pick it would be 2d10*2+1d12. You aren't actually changing the Fatal trait in this way. You increase your base damage die and add a new one, as Fatal instructs, then you reduce your base damage die by one step, as Grasping Reach instructs.
I feel like this is the best compromise to this discussion.
Have to disagree with this. Two contradicting rulings can not apply simultaneously. One thing I’ve noticed that doesn’t get mentioned is that a weapon/unarmed with Fatal always goes up by two die sizes; the Greatpick is the only exception that I’m aware of; this was true with all the guns in the G&G playtest as well. In the event that Grasping Reach would lowers it to a d8, reason would dictate that a Fatal crit would still bump it up to a d12.
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Have to disagree with this. Two contradicting rulings can not apply simultaneously. One thing I’ve noticed that doesn’t get mentioned is that a weapon/unarmed with Fatal always goes up by two die sizes; the Greatpick is the only exception that I’m aware of; this was true with all the guns in the G&G playtest as well. In the event that Grasping Reach would lowers it to a d8, reason would dictate that a Fatal crit would still bump it up to a d12.https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=312
If you follow the steps of the checks:Step 1: Roll d20 and Identify the Modifiers, Bonuses, and Penalties that Apply
Graspping reach triggers hereStep 2: Calculate the Result
Step 3: Compare the Result to the DCStep 4: Determine the Degree of Success
Fatal Triggers here.Increases to X will override the any reduction previously applied, including grasping reach.
Both Grasping Reach and Fatal actually apply at the same step, when you roll the Damage Die which is the first step of the Damage Rules. Fatal just looks at previous info to make the determination of whether or not to trigger.
I'm on the side of lowering the base damage die of the weapon to one under the Fatal value, BUT keeping the additional fatal die the same. This is more in line with how Deadly works too. So with a Striking Great Pick it would be 2d10*2+1d12. You aren't actually changing the Fatal trait in this way. You increase your base damage die and add a new one, as Fatal instructs, then you reduce your base damage die by one step, as Grasping Reach instructs.
I feel like this is the best compromise to this discussion.
How are they contradictions? I am just stating that I believe the order of operations here is that Fatal applies first, and Grasping Reach after. By allowing Fatal to come after Grasping Reach you are basically just ignoring the penalty that Grasping Reach gives, and there would be no reason NOT to use it with a Greatpick.
Also, all Fatal weapons increase by two except Greatpicks because you can't go above a d12. The most optimal weapon would be a d8 weapon with Fatal d12, but Wolf Drag is the only attack that has that.
How are they contradictions? I am just stating that I believe the order of operations here is that Fatal applies first, and Grasping Reach after. By allowing Fatal to come after Grasping Reach you are basically just ignoring the penalty that Grasping Reach gives, and...Have to disagree with this. Two contradicting rulings can not apply simultaneously. One thing I’ve noticed that doesn’t get mentioned is that a weapon/unarmed with Fatal always goes up by two die sizes; the Greatpick is the only exception that I’m aware of; this was true with all the guns in the G&G playtest as well. In the event that Grasping Reach would lowers it to a d8, reason would dictate that a Fatal crit would still bump it up to a d12.https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=312
If you follow the steps of the checks:Step 1: Roll d20 and Identify the Modifiers, Bonuses, and Penalties that Apply
Graspping reach triggers hereStep 2: Calculate the Result
Step 3: Compare the Result to the DCStep 4: Determine the Degree of Success
Fatal Triggers here.Increases to X will override the any reduction previously applied, including grasping reach.
Both Grasping Reach and Fatal actually apply at the same step, when you roll the Damage Die which is the first step of the Damage Rules. Fatal just looks at previous info to make the determination of whether or not to trigger.
I'm on the side of lowering the base damage die of the weapon to one under the Fatal value, BUT keeping the additional fatal die the same. This is more in line with how Deadly works too. So with a Striking Great Pick it would be 2d10*2+1d12. You aren't actually changing the Fatal trait in this way. You increase your base damage die and add a new one, as Fatal instructs, then you reduce your base damage die by one step, as Grasping Reach instructs.
I feel like this is the best compromise to this discussion.
I was saying the two applying at the same step was contradictory. I still stand by that, but my interpretation could just be a little off.
The Greatpick indeed can't go above a d12; making it objectively the worst use of the Fatal Trait on a weapon to date. I don't see any issue with it essentially overriding the penalty from Grasping Reach, on a critical hit. Even using Fighter for Crit-fishing there is usually around a 20% chance to crit?(spit-balling my math on this one) Meaning against bosses this never becomes an issue. Die sizes will also only change the math by 1 average damage and 2 max damage per die.
There are plenty of interactions and rules that negate the penalty or downside of abilities all the time. Greatpick is literally the only weapon that is able to do this interaction.
Personally it just seems like penalizing players for being creative.
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RAW is pretty obvious here. Fatal adjusts values to a listed die size, not by a die step. This puts Fatal on an increase type separate from Grasping Reach, one that supersedes any of Grasping Reach's adjustment, even if we argue that they apply simultaneously, which is impossible.
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RAW is pretty obvious here. Fatal adjusts values to a listed die size, not by a die step. This puts Fatal on an increase type separate from Grasping Reach, one that supersedes any of Grasping Reach's adjustment, even if we argue that they apply simultaneously, which is impossible.
It is obvious, since written as such, that Grasping Reach changes the die, whatever its size. Fatal changes the previous die size to a new one but there is nothing written that says you can ignore effects that change the die. As opposed to Deadly, which has a specific wording to deal with such a case.
Since Fatal does not have this wording, it is obvious RAW that it does not ignore or supersede the effect of Grasping Reach.
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RAW is pretty obvious here. Fatal adjusts values to a listed die size, not by a die step. This puts Fatal on an increase type separate from Grasping Reach, one that supersedes any of Grasping Reach's adjustment, even if we argue that they apply simultaneously, which is impossible.It is obvious, since written as such, that Grasping Reach changes the die, whatever its size. Fatal changes the previous die size to a new one but there is nothing written that says you can ignore effects that change the die. As opposed to Deadly, which has a specific wording to deal with such a case.
Since Fatal does not have this wording, it is obvious RAW that it does not ignore or supersede the effect of Grasping Reach.
If you have a Fatal D12 weapon, and the rules say you set the damage dice to that die size, and you roll D10s, have you set the die size to what is set in the weapon trait? No. Therefore, you haven't actually properly enforced the rules of Fatal, which are more specific than the general dice reduction step of Grasping Reach.
It also works the opposite way. If I have Deadly Simplicity on a Fatal Simple weapon, would my Fatal dice also increase a die size? By your logic, yes. Except Fatal isn't written to factor steps into account. So abilities which affect damage die steps shouldn't affect Fatal.
RAW is pretty obvious here.I love it when people hop into a thread full of posts arguing over vague RAW minutiae and unilaterally declare this.
I mean... they're not wrong, though XD
It's a fair critique if that's all that they said, but they kept going and explained why they came to that conclusion, thus adding to the conversation. Almost everyone here seems to think it's obvious what RAW is saying and they know how to interpret it correctly. Said people are just skipping that implied sentence at the beginning of what they're saying. Instead of: "RAW is pretty obvious here. This is what it says / means" it's just "This is what it says / means". I see no difference, lol.
In fact, I'd say the rest of that post was probably the best summarization of someone's opinion in this entire thread so far. As far as I can tell it also happens to be right, but that's beside the point.
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RAW is pretty obvious here.I love it when people hop into a thread full of posts arguing over vague RAW minutiae and unilaterally declare this.
It's not really vague, though. Fatal's setting a die to a specific size trumps any sort of die step adjustment rules like Deadly Simplicity or Grasping Reach, because it doesn't matter what die size you have with the weapon, Fatal overrides it on a critical hit. It does so on normal hits without these abilities, why would Grasping Reach or Deadly Simplicity override its die setting rules? Literally nothing but Grasping (Reach) at straws here.
**EDIT** In fact, I found the Fatal trait wording, and here's what it says on Archives of Nethys:
The fatal trait includes a die size. On a critical hit, the weapon’s damage die increases to that die size instead of the normal die size, and the weapon adds one additional damage die of the listed size.
So, we can say that with the feat of Grasping Reach, it turns the normal die size of the weapon down a step, but Fatal replaces that normal die size entirely.
You can argue whether it's RAI or not all you want. But RAW is clear as a sunny, cloudless sky. Fatal sets a die size regardless of whatever die size you have, even if it might be equal to or higher than that value. Unless something specifically adjust's the die used being set to that value, it won't change in regards to other feats that increase or reduce die sizes, and even then it would have to come after Fatal is triggered.
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It's also worth noting that fatal is not limited to increasing the weapon's damage die by only one step. In fact, the other 3 base weapons with the fatal trait all have a fatal die 2 greater than the normal weapon damage die. The fatal trait replaces the normal weapon damage, it doesn't increase it by a certain amount.
In addition, if we accept that the ability in question reduces the fatal die, then increasing a weapon's damage die would also increase it's fatal trait. This is most definitely not the case.
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And we can agree to disagree without using such overbearing words as clearly, obviously or definitely. Doubly so since those are often used with the implicit assertion that people who disagree are trying to game the system and trick the GM /force the GM's hand for nefarious purposes.
When we just do not read RAW the same way, without any ill intent.
+1 to the idea that this isn't obviously clear, and that there's more than one reasonable interpretation of two rules being combined.
It seems possible that grasping reach is applied constantly, and that it would apply to both the normal die size and the changed fatal die size. It likewise seems possible that grasping reach is applied only to the weapon damage die as it is typically, and that fatal overrides the change by setting the die.
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Grasping Reach changes the die size. Which is not the normal die size anymore. Thus the aforementioned bolded part of Fatal does not supersede Grasping Reach. It is indeed clear as a sunny cloudless sky.
And I do think it applies to increases too.
It is, though, because that is the size of weapon damage you are dealing while you are gripping the weapon in that fashion. Your attacks will always do that reduced damage die. In essence, it becomes the new normal, until you change the grip on that weapon. This is true regardless of whether the Fatal trait is on a weapon or not. Same applies when wielding a weapon via Deadly Simplicity.
Just as well, there is no proof that adjusting base weapon damage die is meant to affect other aspects of the weapon. Does this also reduce Elemental rune dice sizes, too? Because if weapon traits are affected, so should weapon runes, like Serrating. So that now deals 1D3 damage per hit, and 1D10 damage after spending an action. Let's extend that further to the elemental runes, those are D4s now.
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That rule is in regards to number of dice being rolled, not die size adjustments. It's to prevent things like, say, an 18th level Power Attack Critical from a Grievous Greatpick from giving an additional +12 damage just from critting, since that is weapon damage dice based, which Power Attack affects.
I do appreciate the reference though, it means my group ran Power Attack wrong a couple times.
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Yeah, as Darksol said, it's talking about "Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice"
It's right in the quote included in your post. It has nothing to do with the size of the dice. For example, gravity weapon for the ranger does an extra 2 damage per damage die to your first hit in a round, so it maxes out at +8 with a major striking rune.
When i mentioned Fatal increases by two die sizes, i was indeed referencing it as RAI. When Paizo publishes, i think, 8-9 weapons with the Fatal trait, and all but one of them work in the exact predictable way it would be reasonable to say that the pattern is beyond a reasonable doubt. If Paizo chooses to introduce a Fatal weapon or ability that directly contradicts this, i have no issue saying the circumstantial evidence becomes shaky at best. Until then, the evidence of how Paizo intends Fatal to be balanced is pretty rock solid.
Comparing Fatal to Deadly actually isn’t that accurate or fair a comparison as it would seem at first glance. While they both work incredibly similarly at early levels, it’s at later levels that their uniqueness comes to light. Namely, the extra dice from Deadly do not get reduced from Resistances, while the damage increase from Fatal does. This means there will be instances where one is clearly better than the other; meaning the comparison ends up skewed in Deadly’s favor.
When looking at the Fighter’s Weapon Prof. it seems i was accurate in saying it’s only about 20% chance to crit. This can change to 30-40% depending on weaker enemies but will always be a rather low chance against higher enemies. It’s also important to note that this is before applying MAP. Meaning in the event that Fatal would supersede Grasping Reach it would be in pretty rare, or at the very least uncommon, instances; and almost never on the third strike. This should be sufficient evidence that Grasping Reach applies as a General Rule; which the book points out that when rules conflict with one another that the Specific rule should always win out(unless a GM determines otherwise ofcourse).
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Namely, the extra dice from Deadly do not get reduced from Resistances, while the damage increase from Fatal does.
Uh, no. All damage you roll from Deadly and Fatal is applied to Resistances, as that part happens in Step 2 and Resistances are applied in Step 3. Also, as I said before the Greatpick is the only weapon to have Fatal only go up one die size because damage die can not exceed d12s.
If we assume there's a weapon with d8, Fatal d12 and we're applying the logic of Fatal applying after Grasping Reach, we are essentially increasing it three die sizes (from d6 to d12). Meanwhile, if we reduce the Fatal die by one step, we are still increasing it by 2 steps (d6 to d10). The second option is more in line with how Fatal normally works, and in line with how the ability says it works. Allowing Fatal to overwrite Grasping Reach just gives you all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.
And people keep pointing to a Crit being more specific than Grasping Reach, remember that Fatal is the ability on the weapon that anyone using it can use, meanwhile Grasping Reach is an ability only Leshies with the feat can use, making it the more "specific" ability.
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Namely, the extra dice from Deadly do not get reduced from Resistances, while the damage increase from Fatal does.Uh, no. All damage you roll from Deadly and Fatal is applied to Resistances, as that part happens in Step 2 and Resistances are applied in Step 3. Also, as I said before the Greatpick is the only weapon to have Fatal only go up one die size because damage die can not exceed d12s.
If we assume there's a weapon with d8, Fatal d12 and we're applying the logic of Fatal applying after Grasping Reach, we are essentially increasing it three die sizes (from d6 to d12). Meanwhile, if we reduce the Fatal die by one step, we are still increasing it by 2 steps (d6 to d10). The second option is more in line with how Fatal normally works, and in line with how the ability says it works. Allowing Fatal to overwrite Grasping Reach just gives you all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.
And people keep pointing to a Crit being more specific than Grasping Reach, remember that Fatal is the ability on the weapon that anyone using it can use, meanwhile Grasping Reach is an ability only Leshies with the feat can use, making it the more "specific" ability.
No, the second option is not in line with how Fatal works by RAW, because the trait outright states it changes the die size to that value listed in the weapon trait. If it says D12, it doesn't matter if your weapon only did D2 damage or over D20 damage, it changes to D12. It might be in line with Fatal's expected power curve that is two sizes higher in a normal scenario, but that isn't how Fatal is written to work, by RAW, and with other feats altering that normal, you're changing power curves already before Fatal comes into effect.
Specific Trumps General doesn't actually matter. It's a betrayal of Fatal RAW, which as I stated above is that it changes the die size to that value. If you have a Fatal D12 weapon and you roll D10s instead of the original value you would roll, have you changed the die size to the listed value? No, you didn't, so you didn't actually follow Fatal rules properly, either.
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If we assume there's a weapon with d8, Fatal d12 and we're applying the logic of Fatal applying after Grasping Reach, we are essentially increasing it three die sizes (from d6 to d12). Meanwhile, if we reduce the Fatal die by one step, we are still increasing it by 2 steps (d6 to d10). The second option is more in line with how Fatal normally works, and in line with how the ability says it works. Allowing Fatal to overwrite Grasping Reach just gives you all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.
And people keep pointing to a Crit being more specific than Grasping Reach, remember that Fatal is the ability on the weapon that anyone using it can use, meanwhile Grasping Reach is an ability only Leshies with the feat can use, making it the more "specific" ability.
If you can point to a single spot in the rules where one of the following 2 are mentioned, then I'll concede that it changes to d10 instead of d12:
1. Changing the size of a weapon's die affects it's traits in any way.2. A reference to fatal increasing the size of a die by a certain number of steps.
Note for 2 that I added "by a certain number of steps". The wording has the word increase in it, but it changes it to the listed value, not by a certain number of steps.
The only way I can think of that the fatal trait wouldn't override the weapon's damage die on a critical hit is if, for some reason, your weapon's damage die was larger than the fatal die listed in it's traits.
Also, I'm not buying arguments either for or against 1 of the abilities being more or less specific based on where the ability comes from. The point is that they occur at different times, and they BOTH trigger. Deadly doesn't change the fact that the decrease happens, it just so happens to make it so that even with that decrease the weapon deal's a d12 in damage. Grasping reach makes it so that, while in that grip, the weapon functions as if it had reach, but with a damage die one step lower. THEN, in certain circumstances, when you critically hit you may override that value - Not increase by a certain amount, but specifically override it - with a different value due to the fatal trait. The weapon's damage die is still one lower, but the amount of damage it's doing is the same in this scenario, because for that attack, and that attack only, the die changed. I see no problem with that.
It's possible that I'm wrong about this and they're supposed to trigger at the same time, but things triggering at the same time is always going to cause problems and inconsistencies, which is why, as far as I'm aware, Paizo tends to avoid that as much as possible in PF2. Anyway, IF they are supposed to trigger at the same time, which seems dubious to me, but we'll run with it, then yeah, it would really be a toss-up and 100% up to GM interpretation about which affect happens "first" at the moment the strike occurs. Because here's the thing, something has to be first. If you set the die to a d12 and then reduce it, it becomes a d10 for the strike and a d12 bonus die that wouldn't get affected, as Cordell Kinter said. On the other hand, if you reduce the die and then set it to a d12, you'll get d12 as a base, and d12 bonus die.
Namely, the extra dice from Deadly do not get reduced from Resistances, while the damage increase from Fatal does.Uh, no. All damage you roll from Deadly and Fatal is applied to Resistances, as that part happens in Step 2 and Resistances are applied in Step 3. Also, as I said before the Greatpick is the only weapon to have Fatal only go up one die size because damage die can not exceed d12s.
If we assume there's a weapon with d8, Fatal d12 and we're applying the logic of Fatal applying after Grasping Reach, we are essentially increasing it three die sizes (from d6 to d12). Meanwhile, if we reduce the Fatal die by one step, we are still increasing it by 2 steps (d6 to d10). The second option is more in line with how Fatal normally works, and in line with how the ability says it works. Allowing Fatal to overwrite Grasping Reach just gives you all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.
And people keep pointing to a Crit being more specific than Grasping Reach, remember that Fatal is the ability on the weapon that anyone using it can use, meanwhile Grasping Reach is an ability only Leshies with the feat can use, making it the more "specific" ability.
Hmm. . . I’ll have to find the ruling on if it bypasses resistance then. Possible I’m mixing it up with something else.
I would say you have a good point with a d8 weapon with d12 Fatal; but seeing as such a weapon does not currently exist it ends up being a moot point. Currently it’s how Grasping Reach works with current weapons.
One very real issue with saying Grasping Reach works over Fatal is no matter how it’s ruled, one of the rules will betray the other. That’s why i said Fatal will only have an average of 30% usage where it would over ride Grasping Reach; and only on the initial strike, and against equal or lower level enemies. This is something that hasn’t even bothered to be addressed. If Fatal was a more common trait, like say, the Two-Hand trait, i would be much more inclined to agree; but alas, it is not.
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Does this also reduce Elemental rune dice sizes, too? Because if weapon traits are affected, so should weapon runes, like Serrating. So that now deals 1D3 damage per hit, and 1D10 damage after spending an action. Let's extend that further to the elemental runes, those are D4s now.
No matter which way you fall on this discussion, this is kind of a terrible argument. None of those are the weapon's damage die.
Namely, the extra dice from Deadly do not get reduced from Resistances, while the damage increase from Fatal does.Uh, no. All damage you roll from Deadly and Fatal is applied to Resistances, as that part happens in Step 2 and Resistances are applied in Step 3. Also, as I said before the Greatpick is the only weapon to have Fatal only go up one die size because damage die can not exceed d12s.
If we assume there's a weapon with d8, Fatal d12 and we're applying the logic of Fatal applying after Grasping Reach, we are essentially increasing it three die sizes (from d6 to d12). Meanwhile, if we reduce the Fatal die by one step, we are still increasing it by 2 steps (d6 to d10). The second option is more in line with how Fatal normally works, and in line with how the ability says it works. Allowing Fatal to overwrite Grasping Reach just gives you all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.
And people keep pointing to a Crit being more specific than Grasping Reach, remember that Fatal is the ability on the weapon that anyone using it can use, meanwhile Grasping Reach is an ability only Leshies with the feat can use, making it the more "specific" ability.
Hmm. . . I’ll have to find the ruling on if it bypasses resistance then. Possible I’m mixing it up with something else.
I would say you have a good point with a d8 weapon with d12 Fatal; but seeing as such a weapon does not currently exist it ends up being a moot point. Currently it’s how Grasping Reach works with current weapons.
One very real issue with saying Grasping Reach works over Fatal is no matter how it’s ruled, one of the rules will betray the other. That’s why i said Fatal will only have an average of 30% usage where it would over ride Grasping Reach; and only on the initial strike, and against equal or lower level enemies. This is something that hasn’t even bothered to be addressed. If Fatal was a more common trait, like say, the Two-Hand trait, i would be much more...
Interesting that you bring up the Two-Hand trait, which has identical wording to Fatal, in that regardless of the original die size, it increases to the indicated die value. This would mean that using a Bastard Sword as a two-handed weapon would turn it into a Reach D12 with Grasping Reach, by RAW.
I would be less inclined to believe that to be RAI, since Two-Hand, as a trait, is grip-dependant, just like Grasping Reach is, but the same argument for Fatal would likewise apply to Two-Hand, even if that is the case, based on RAW.
I will say that this definitely calls for a rewrite on Grasping Reach if the ability is intended to reduce those dice values, as by RAW, they wouldn't due to specificity of die size trumping generality of die steps.
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Does this also reduce Elemental rune dice sizes, too? Because if weapon traits are affected, so should weapon runes, like Serrating. So that now deals 1D3 damage per hit, and 1D10 damage after spending an action. Let's extend that further to the elemental runes, those are D4s now.No matter which way you fall on this discussion, this is kind of a terrible argument. None of those are the weapon's damage die.
The Elemental runes were a bit of hyperbole, I will admit. Serrating, not so much, since that augments your existing weapon damage.
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Interesting that you bring up the Two-Hand trait, which has identical wording to Fatal, in that regardless of the original die size, it increases to the indicated die value. This would mean that using a Bastard Sword as a two-handed weapon would turn it into a Reach D12 with Grasping Reach, by RAW.
I would be less inclined to believe that to be RAI, since Two-Hand, as a trait, is grip-dependant, just like Grasping Reach is, but the same argument for Fatal would likewise apply to Two-Hand, even if that is the case, based on RAW.
I will say that this definitely calls for a rewrite on Grasping Reach if the ability is intended to reduce those dice values, as by RAW, they wouldn't due to specificity of die size trumping generality of die steps.
Grasping reach doesn't even work with the two-handed trait. In it's text it says "When you wield a melee weapon that requires two hands...". A weapon with the two-handed trait can be used one-handed or two-handed, and so it doesn't require two hands.
Moreover, even if that wasn't the case, you'd still have to be holding the weapon in a two-handed grip first to qualify for grasping reach, which brings us back to the order of operations. First it becomes a 2-handed weapon and takes on that die size, then it gets it's die reduced.
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I have explained earlier how I believe it works, but here's a more step by step version:
First we make the Attack roll. We end up rolling a Critical Hit, and move on to Damage.
Step one is to roll the damage die, and apply all modifiers. Since the attack was a crit, we increase the Greatpick damage from 2d10 to 2d12, multiply that by 2, and add an additional d12, for a total of (2d12+4)*2+1d12.
But we're also using Grasping Reach, so that lowers the die by one step, ending up at (2d10+4)*2+1d12.
After step one, everything happens normally. We don't actually reduce the Fatal trait, and the additional die stays in place. Only the standard weapon die are modified by the trait and ability.
As I am arguing, this follows the rules of all the relevant abilities, and also doesn't completely negate the downside of one of the abilities.
Also, there is one attack with d8 Fatal d12, but it's unarmed (It's called Wolf Drag). You still shouldn't ignore the point I've made with it as there can totally be a 2 handed weapon like that in the future, especially since there will be a firearm with those stats soon.
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I have explained earlier how I believe it works, but here's a more step by step version:
First we make the Attack roll. We end up rolling a Critical Hit, and move on to Damage.
Step one is to roll the damage die, and apply all modifiers. Since the attack was a crit, we increase the Greatpick damage from 2d10 to 2d12, multiply that by 2, and add an additional d12, for a total of (2d12+4)*2+1d12.
But we're also using Grasping Reach, so that lowers the die by one step, ending up at (2d10+4)*2+1d12.
After step one, everything happens normally. We don't actually reduce the Fatal trait, and the additional die stays in place. Only the standard weapon die are modified by the trait and ability.
As I am arguing, this follows the rules of all the relevant abilities, and also doesn't completely negate the downside of one of the abilities.
I very much understand, and this was addressed in my previous post as one of the two possible interpretations if and only if you assume that the grasping reach damage dice are calculated on the fly. Since it takes an interact action to change grip, I'd say that you change the die at that time. But, even if that isn't the case, you still have to decide which interaction happens first, which is in no way clear. The assumption that fatal should trigger first and then grasping reach may make sense from a balance perspective (though, personally I don't see a problem either way), but RAW there's no distinction between the timing, unless, of course, it happens when you switch grip.
Personally, I like to give Paizo the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they don't leave out key pieces of information, which leads me to assume I understand how this interaction should work. However, if I'm wrong, then yes, what you described would be the only other logical alternative.
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One very real issue with saying Grasping Reach works over Fatal is no matter how it’s ruled, one of the rules will betray the other.Fatal bumps the weapon up to d12 and gives you an additional d12 die. Grasping Reach reduces the weapon damage d12s to d10s.
There is no betrayal because both abilities function. They just happen to mitigate each other just like any other bonus and penalty applying simultaneously would.
This is exactly what I was saying. They both function. One reduces; one replaces. Basic math tells us that the order is VERY important in that scenario, and I see nothing in the rules that would indicate the change to d12 happens first. It could, but it could also not, which I personally think has a little more backing due to the grip changing things before any hits are applied. However, I'm not a mind reader. It's possible the order is swapped. That would just indicate a slight oversight when writing the rules, which is most definitely possible, but not something that I like to assume.
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One reduces; one replaces. Basic math tells us that the order is VERY important in that scenario, and I see nothing in the rules that would indicate the change to d12 happens first.The problem with this line of logic is the whole notion of 'first' to begin with. Grasping Reach is not a triggered ability. There is nothing to support the idea that there is some logic gate that you only pass through once.
Weapons wielded in your extended reach have their die reduced one step. That is it. That is just what the ability does and if you want it to stop, you need to stop wielding your weapon in an extended grasp. There is no 'temporarily suppress this ability when...' language to infer or squeeze out of the text here.
Sigh...
I understand what you're saying, but again, the assumption that that's how it works is unfounded in the rules, and is only one option. All you're saying is that it applies last. You may see what you're saying as something else, but both mechanically and theoretically saying it happens last is the same as saying "that is it." I could just as easily say:
"That is just what fatal does. It replaces whatever damage die the weapon is doing with the fatal die, regardless of whether it's been reduced or increased. There is no "this value may be lowered if your weapon's base damage die was reduced" language to infer or queeze out of the text here."
But I had better arguments than that, so I didn't rely on something that could be easily inverted to work for whatever side you think is correct.
There's nothing wrong with ruling it the way you see it. I personally don't think that's what was meant, and I've laid out the reasons why, but if I were to be wrong, then again, yes, that would be how it works.
However, the other option is valid as well, and I personally think it makes more sense. there is nothing inconsistent with saying that the weapon's damage die is reduced one step, causing it to, while in that grip, function as a d8 weapon with the fatal d12 trait. This is the other interpretation. It's pretty simple. Everyone knows how a d8 weapon with the fatal d12 trait would work.
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One very real issue with saying Grasping Reach works over Fatal is no matter how it’s ruled, one of the rules will betray the other.Fatal bumps the weapon up to d12 and gives you an additional d12 die. Grasping Reach reduces the weapon damage d12s to d10s.
There is no betrayal because both abilities function. They just happen to mitigate each other just like any other bonus and penalty applying simultaneously would.
No, Fatal was bumped to D10 instead because Grasping Reach reduced it by 1 step, thus it was actually not bumped up to the listed die size, which was D12. Thus, it's not actually Fatal D12, as the trait listing says, which means the trait listing is wrong, and is done wrong as a result. This is why it's paradoxical, because it creates a "Fatal D12, but not really Fatal D12, more like Fatal D10 with a D12 dice in the mix because why the hell not" situation that just makes no sense, in an edition where they moved the Greatsword away from 2D6 damage, for precisely this reason: To avoid confusing/stacking dice values for basic weapons. (Or it could be because they don't want Greatswords rolling Mini-Fireball levels of damage dice by the endgame, but who knows.)
No, they don't. This is like saying Slowed and Stunned aren't the same condition because they both reduce actions and stack. This is why Slowed has the clause that Stunned actions lost also count towards Slowed actions lost and vice-versa. Because otherwise they would function independent of each other and you would lose 2 actions. Do you see a clause like that for Grasping Reach? No. The level of inference required to reach this conclusion is too much to make it the obvious baseline, balance be damned.
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So you're basically saying Fatal can never be reduced because... reasons? It doesn't say it can't be reduced, so why are you insisting that it can't? Like with your example with Slowed and Stunned, they have explicit rules saying they dont stack, yet Fatal has nothing that says it wouldn't stack with abilities that lower die size.
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So you're basically saying Fatal can never be reduced because... reasons? It doesn't say it can't be reduced, so why are you insisting that it can't? Like with your example with Slowed and Stunned, they have explicit rules saying they dont stack, yet Fatal has nothing that says it wouldn't stack with abilities that lower die size.
It can't be reduced because then you aren't following the effect of the trait properly. Fatal has a die size. When you land a critical hit, all of your weapon dice turn to that size, and no other size. Does Fatal D12 mean you roll D10s? No. You roll D12s. Not "D10s with a D12 mixed in," D12s. Grasping Reach does not change this.
The die bonus from Fatal matches the weapon damage die because the trait decides both for you, and it's clear as crystal with Grasping Reach not being a factor. A Greatpick dealing D10 with Fatal D12 means you turn all your dice to D12s and add an additional D12 on a critical hit.
Grasping Reach has already adjusted your weapon damage dice prior to Fatal becoming a factor simply because every normal hit, with or without a non-Fatal weapon, is already lowered a step once you begin the damage dealing process, Fatal overrides that adjusted value.
They have explicit rules stating that losing one action to one also counts as losing the action to the other. They are still otherwise separate conditions for every other purpose. But keep telling me you lose two actions from Stunned and Slowed because Stunned was applied first and only Slowed has the reduction clause. It's basically what you're doing here, where Stunned is Fatal and Slowed is Grasping Reach.
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Stunned and Slowed do the same thing. Fatal and Grasping Reach do relatively opposite things. The comparison does not really follow.
Fatal has a die size.Fatal has a die size and you're under an effect that reduces your die size. So you apply both. Fatal-1.
I understand what you're saying, but again, the assumption that that's how it works is unfounded in the rulesIt is pretty well founded in the rules actually, because it's what Grasping Reach does.
And again, I can counter with "because that's what fatal does." You're not really making a point here. It still depends on when it applies. Please tell me you at least understand the concept I'm explaining about the order of operations, even if you don't think it's applicable... Because if not, I might as well be talking to a brick wall here.
We have two interpretations. One of them requires you to assume Grasping Reach ceases to function whenever you crit, based on nothing but wishful thinking. The other is based on both abilities functioning as written at all times.
It doesn't cease to function. If something increases damage by 10, and then an ability nullifies damage, does that mean that that the increase in damage ceased to function, or that you need a special exception to overrule the increase? Of course not.
You can 'both sides' all you want, but this is just trying to finagle some extra power out of an ability.
As someone who has no plans to use this combo in the future, I can assure you I'm not trying to get extra power out of a the trait. Also, I'm not really saying "both sides are equally right" or anything. I have my opinion, and I explained exactly why I think that. I just don't think it's unreasonable to come to a different conclusion, because there is a possible interpretation to allow for it, however unlikely I may think that is. I was trying to be nice.
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So you're basically saying Fatal can never be reduced because... reasons? It doesn't say it can't be reduced, so why are you insisting that it can't? Like with your example with Slowed and Stunned, they have explicit rules saying they dont stack, yet Fatal has nothing that says it wouldn't stack with abilities that lower die size.
Damage can be reduced, sure. And if something allowed you to reduce the damage die on a hit for some kind of effect, then I think it would be pretty clear that the reduction would occur after the change to d12. However, I think grasping reach is, for all intents and purposes, changing the weapon's base damage die, and as mentioned previously, we all know what a d8 weapon with d12 fatal trait would do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think it's changing the damage die upon the attack landing. Again, a fair interpretation, but one that seems unlikely to be what was intended in my opinion.