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Comparing the race entries for goblin from the 1st edition nethys site to the 2nd edition nethys site is interesting.
The 1e site categorically states they're basically all insane flesh eating monsters that impulsively destroy and are easily manipulated and do nothing but hunger and war with everything, while having little to no redeeming qualities and never being part of society beyond surviving off refuse. It's not presented as opinion, though there is a small section about how they're views by other races (as psychotic parasites) which lines up with what was already established.
The 2e site basically says they're just "eccentric, enthusiastic, and fun-loving" little goofs that love stories and are likely to "Lighten the heavy emotional burdens others carry" with playful antics.
The 2e entry seems a far cry from the 1e goblins that crave the flesh of sentient beings (namely humans and gnomes apparently) among other irredeemable things. It does say that times have been changing for them recently but for me it feels more like goblins have been massively retconned with 2e due to their popularity.
Now don't get me wrong, this isn't a complaint! I much prefer the 2e versions and have no problem with retcons, nor pathfinder focusing on what people like (they definitely should). But it got me wondering, are there other lore things that got largely retconned or overhauled in the transition to 2e like the goblins did?
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From the Creative Director, James Jacobs
Behind the scenes history glimpse:
When we launched the first Pathfinder Adventure Path two years BEFORE we launched the Pathfinder RPG, we were desperate to establish ourselves as our own company and game studio APART from Wizards of the Coast.
With the first volume of the first Adventure Path, "Burnt Offerings," we decided to focus on a monster that, for decades in D&D, had been regulated to the role of "speed bump encounter" in adventures… the lowly goblin. Our goal was to breathe new life into goblins, give them personality, and make them into memorable foes for low-level PCs to fight against and to remember. I took equal parts gremlin (from the movie Gremlins), Stitch (from the movie Lilo and Stitch), Wayne Reynolds' now iconic cover and first illustration of our goblins, mythological real-world tales of evil/sinister little spirits/monsters, and my own twisted sense of humor as inspiration and came up with the goblins that starred in that adventure.
They became wildly popular beyond any of our expectations.
Fast-forward 12 years, and we are launching a 2nd edition of Pathfinder. This is a game that, unlike 1st edition, wasn't so much a re-skin of the 3rd Edition D&D rules but a complete and total rebuild of the rules. There's more of our design philosophy in 2nd edition than in 1st edition, and that reflects all we learned over the course of those 12 years in between.
While we wanted to retain the core ancestry and class options from 1st edition Pathfinder (themselves the core ancestry and class options from D&D), we wanted to take this chance to introduce a new class and a new ancestry that WE built up, not something we inherited from D&D.
For the classes, this was the Alchemist class.
For the ancestries, the notion of adding a new one to the mix of Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, and Gnome was in the mix from the start... and NO other ancestry other than Goblin came or comes close to being so completely identifiable as "PAIZO" than anything else. Graduating them to a PC option was, in effect, a no-brainer.
This doesn't mean that all goblins in the world are now good. Remember, even if your entire party is made of goblins, PCs remain the rarest of the rare in your game—at any one time, there's only the number of PCs at your table active in a setting, so even if they're all goblins, that's, what, four characters on an entire planet. However many other goblins in the world are non-evil is left to each individual GM to decide.
For Golarion, we do make that choice, and there are indeed groups of goblins in the world who aren't maniac evil baby-eating monsters... particularly in areas like Isger and Absalom. Not so much in western Varisia, where goblins remain mostly nasty (although you'll note some non-nasty goblins in Sandpoint's recent book even).
So there ya go.
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Most of the monstrous races have been rewritten to be more functional societies capable of producing heroic characters. I don't think any have been as outright retconned as goblins - the other big and obvious examples are the lore developments that have helped make orcs (new developments in Belkzen politics and the rejection of Tar Baphon by their leadership, plus just a greater focus on Mwangi where there have always been good orcs) and hobgoblins (literally an entire AP about that) more than just loot pinatas.
I do agree that this is a step in the right direction and am fully willing to accept outright retcons for it. We've long moved past the point where generically evil greenskins is a cool and interesting storyline.
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Kobolds received a dramatic visual redesign (that people seem to either love to bits or absolutely hate), but their story remains mostly the same.
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I swear, we’ve had this exact thread about a dozen times.
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In 2e changelings can be of the male sex. To give the the retcon some degree of in-world exlination it is stated that that male changelings are very rare and don't often get the call, this has led to the false assumption that male changelings didn't exist. In 1e it was explained that the only male offspring of hags were the caliban and these were created though coven magic; "just as changelings are always female, calibans are always male, and since they are the result of hags’ foul magics it is impossible for them to reproduce".
For obvious reasons, the skin colour of drow is now explicitly described as "an unearthly lavender sheen" instead of ranging "from coal black to a dusky purple".
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Most of the monstrous races have been rewritten to be more functional societies capable of producing heroic characters. I don't think any have been as outright retconned as goblins - the other big and obvious examples are the lore developments that have helped make orcs (new developments in Belkzen politics and the rejection of Tar Baphon by their leadership, plus just a greater focus on Mwangi where there have always been good orcs) and hobgoblins (literally an entire AP about that) more than just loot pinatas.
I do agree that this is a step in the right direction and am fully willing to accept outright retcons for it. We've long moved past the point where generically evil greenskins is a cool and interesting storyline.
I think it is mostly more interesting to have a shades of grey world. However I do enjoy some simple black and white now and again.
Still if you are in a world where 95% of a race have a particular outlook that is dangerous to your people, is it a responsible thing to makes exceptions for those 5%.
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"While some goblins are civilized and have worked hard to be considered upstanding members of humanoid communities, most are impetuous and vicious creatures who delight in wreaking havoc. These goblins think nothing of slaughtering livestock, stealing infants, or burning down a building purely for momentary delight. They revel in playing malicious tricks on taller humanoids, whom they call “longshanks.”"
From the bestiary.
I don't believe much has changed overall for goblins, they are a little less overtly horrifying in the text but it is still hinted at and doesn't suggest a major shift in tone.
More importantly the other elements of portrayal were changed years before PF2e came out, likely years before it was even being worked on tbh. Goblins in setting have been more fleshed out as an actual race for a very very long time with non evil goblins or intelligent thinking evil goblins appearing in multiple APs and Modules. This can be seen in books like Inner Sea Races published in 2015.
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Yeah, goblins aren't as much "retconned"(besides the aspect of them being treated as pests to be killed on sight by town guards :P) as much as "Bestiary text goblins are completely different from player character goblins". Like Lost Omen Character Guide pretty much sets up the 1e goblin stereotype as "This is what varisian goblins are generally like"
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Lots to catch up on here!
Very interesting hearing about the process they went through distinguishing 1e from 3.5dnd.
Yes the kobold design change is one I love as well, definitely cooler now.
I had forgotten about changelings too, never played one but it's good they get to be male now.
Sorry I didn't know of other threads asking about new retcons and changes.
I didn't realise there were 1e products that gave a more balanced view of the goblin race, I admit I usually just read the race entry and skim the rest for rules.
Were there any other changes going into 2e?
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A decade progressed in-setting, and every Adventure Path is assumed to have been resolved successfully (notably giving us an independent Ravounel, the creation of a hobgoblin state in Oprak, and the elevation of an Androffan Android to godhood, to say nothing of New Thassilon or a certain Russian royal), which shook up a lot of things.
There’s also been an explicit push to get away from depicting any ancestries as being inherently evil, with goblins, orcs, kobolds, gnolls, and others receiving more nuance and humanity. This goes hand-in-hand to get away from colonialist tropes in fantasy, which is part of how Sargava revolted and became Vidrian, or how we’re about to get a Mwangi setting book and accompanying AP that doesn’t treat it as a place for Avistani heroes to go on bloody, exotic romps.
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Absolutely pumped for the mwangi book and to see how they do at making entirely new ancestries. Similarly interested to find out more about gnolls, who have always been a staple in my games but have always lacked depth.
Are lizardfolk as inherently devoid of empathy as the reptilian races always seemed to be in DND? I'm similarly interested in playing them but don't recall seeing much about them in pathfinder.
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Absolutely pumped for the mwangi book and to see how they do at making entirely new ancestries. Similarly interested to find out more about gnolls, who have always been a staple in my games but have always lacked depth.
Are lizardfolk as inherently devoid of empathy as the reptilian races always seemed to be in DND? I'm similarly interested in playing them but don't recall seeing much about them in pathfinder.
Lizardfolk are pretty personable (they share the city of Jaha with a group of Lirgeni humans), and were introduced in the first major player option book for 2e, with detailed info on several ethnicities of their kind across the setting. I think serpentfolk fill the niche you describe?
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Are lizardfolk as inherently devoid of empathy as the reptilian races always seemed to be in DND? I'm similarly interested in playing them but don't recall seeing much about them in pathfinder.
Lost omens character guide and lost omens ancestry guide both have decent chunks of background lore on lizardfolk. Worth reading imo, more fun than the faerun style lizardfolk imo
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I think the retcons in large part helps to delineate PF from it's DnD roots. It's not just creatures but also items, ioun stones became aeon stones for example.
In developing a more distinct identity Paizo have been able to move away from/rework the more problematic legacy elements e.g. drow, orcs etc. in what feels like a much more organic and sincere manner than WotC.
I just wish there was a way they could've scrapped ancestries living for hundreds of years.
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I think the "reptilian race with inherently different way of thinking and perceiving emotions" is just D&D thing yeah
No, it's also true of serpentfolk in Lost Omens. The Compass Stone book gives some insight into their thinking.
Lizardfolk are described as on a whole being patient and reserved, but fine.
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My experience with Pathfinder goblins began in Burnt Offerings, 1st module of Rise of the Runelords, with the goblin raid on Sandpoint. Thus, I met the unruly, pyromaniac goblins in their original form. I had started that campaign as a player, but became the GM during the 3rd module.
Two and a half years later, I was beginning a new campaign. Many players were excited by the new playable races in the Advanced Race Guide. One wanted to play a goblin (Adventure Path for a Goblin Fire Bomber?). We decided on Jade Regent. The goblin Spriggs had grown up in the Licktoad goblin tribe, but had been captured and enslaved by a local witch who taught him how to read. The player had to drop out after the 1st module, so we left the retired character behind as the new chief of the Licktoad goblins. He built a coffee shop on the trade route (retroactively renamed to "Goblin Gulp Coffee) rather than raiding caravans.
(Coincidentally, behind me I can hear Spriggs' player over my wife's computer speaker. They are playing Elder Scrolls Online together. He lives in another state. Roleplaying friends are often enduring friends.)
I feel that efforts like Spriggs' have been gradually civilizing many goblin tribes. It is not a retcon; instead, it is a success.
My elder daughter plays a goblin champion in my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign. Tikti was raised in the Goblinswork Library in Isger, founded as an experiment after the Goblinsblood War to raise goblin orphans as civilized people. The humans brought in civilized tailed goblins from Mediogalti Island to raise the orphans. Tikti is a 3rd-generation result of the interbreeding of tailed goblins and Isger goblins. The backstory is mainly an excuse to have a bookish tailed goblin in Nirmathis.
Adventurers are seldom normal people. Goblin adventurers are seldom normal goblins.
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All of the monsters are an ordinary (but antagonistic) example of whatever thing. All of the adventures are exceptional versions of whatever they are.
It's weirder to be able to claim "all of x are baby eating maniacs" than "there's a bunch of different kinds of x, and many of them believe different things."
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friends.)
I feel that efforts like Spriggs' have been gradually civilizing many goblin tribes. It is not a retcon; instead, it is a success.
My elder daughter plays a goblin champion in my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign. Tikti was raised in the Goblinswork Library in Isger, founded as an experiment after the Goblinsblood War to raise goblin orphans as civilized people. The humans brought in civilized tailed goblins from Mediogalti Island to raise the orphans. Tikti is a 3rd-generation result of the interbreeding of tailed goblins and Isger goblins. The backstory is mainly an excuse to have a bookish tailed goblin in Nirmathis.
The idea that a species of people need to be “civilized” by others is profoundly uncomfortable to me. This reads really, really gross.
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The idea that a species of people need to be “civilized” by others is profoundly uncomfortable to me. This reads really, really gross.friends.)
I feel that efforts like Spriggs' have been gradually civilizing many goblin tribes. It is not a retcon; instead, it is a success.
My elder daughter plays a goblin champion in my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign. Tikti was raised in the Goblinswork Library in Isger, founded as an experiment after the Goblinsblood War to raise goblin orphans as civilized people. The humans brought in civilized tailed goblins from Mediogalti Island to raise the orphans. Tikti is a 3rd-generation result of the interbreeding of tailed goblins and Isger goblins. The backstory is mainly an excuse to have a bookish tailed goblin in Nirmathis.
Would you prefer, "learns to work with others," rather than "civilized"?
Consider the situation with the goblin tribes near Sandpoint. They live in poverty. To improve their lives, they raid Sandpoint or travelers on the road to Sandpoint. In response, Sandpoint recruits adventurers to kill them, so that the tribes no longer have enough adults to conduct raids.
With the Licktoad tribe, the goblin player character Spriggs, who was born in the tribe, learned alchemy and joined a group of adventurers tasked to stopped the raiding by the tribe. They killed off the chief and installed Spriggs as the new chief. The adventurers were foreign intervention on the Licktoad tribe.
Spriggs organized them to open up a shop on the trade route that sold coffee made from ingredients found in Licktoad territory. The travelers paid money for the coffee, so the tribe had money to buy items to live more comfortably. Adventurers no longer invaded Brinestump Marsh to slay goblin raiders and their families.
The Licktoad goblins still have their own territory and culture, except that they gave up raiding caravans and took up selling coffee and buying goods from Sandpoint.
From the point of view of the Sandpoint residents, the Licktoad goblins joined civilization, the society where humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings, half-elves, and half-orcs work together for mutual benefit. There have been other species on Golarion that built their own private civilizations, such as the serpentfolk, but this is the worldwide mutual civilization of many species. The usual phrase for joining civilization is "became civilized."
Is this bad? Or is this good but we shouldn't call it "civilized" due to bad connotations from Earth history?
Consider the situation in my Ironfang Invasion campaign. The nation of Molthune recruited a large hobgoblin bandit gang into their army as a "monster division." General Azaersi, the hobgoblin in change of that bandit-gang division, gathered more power, betrayed the Molthune, and started carving her own nation out of neighboring Nirmathis. She wanted a hobgoblin homeland, where hobgoblins and some other so-called monster races could have their own society and humans, dwarves, and elves would be slaves. Whenever the hobgoblins encountered a goblin tribe in Nirmathis they gathered them in as part of hobgoblin society. Those goblin tribes were forced to become civilized in the hobgoblin way.
That is not what Spriggs did. That is not what the Goblnsworth Library did either, since they tried to raise the baby goblins in a goblin society, the works-with-other culture of Mediogalti Island rather than the we-are-at-war culture of Isger.
Golarion is far from perfect. Instead, that world is a mess where adventurers thrive. But some people work with others and other people war with others. Must the goblins always be at war? Can't some goblins learn to work with their non-goblin neighbors?
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The idea that a species of people need to be “civilized” by others is profoundly uncomfortable to me. This reads really, really gross.friends.)
I feel that efforts like Spriggs' have been gradually civilizing many goblin tribes. It is not a retcon; instead, it is a success.
My elder daughter plays a goblin champion in my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign. Tikti was raised in the Goblinswork Library in Isger, founded as an experiment after the Goblinsblood War to raise goblin orphans as civilized people. The humans brought in civilized tailed goblins from Mediogalti Island to raise the orphans. Tikti is a 3rd-generation result of the interbreeding of tailed goblins and Isger goblins. The backstory is mainly an excuse to have a bookish tailed goblin in Nirmathis.
To be fair, the 2e assumption is less than goblins are "being civilized" and more that goblins are becoming more civilized in certain areas as a result of extended interactions with more civil cultures.
No one really seems to be doing it on purpose for the most part - not even the goblins.
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I assume that the goblins used as player characters are of a domesticated breed.
I mean... dogs. While we can all think of a lovable fuzzball or two... wild dogs are an active menace in many areas. And unfortunately, I attempted to google my facts before writing this, and I got a...very uncensored view of the problems of Australian sheep herders, including the phrase"50 or 60 sheep a night".
Anyway, I always kind of assumed that the goblins simply came in as a package deal with the hobgoblins when they were making their cultural push. The goblin tribes used during this cultural interaction were likely long beaten into line by the hobgoblins that were over them.
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I assume that the goblins used as player characters are of a domesticated breed.
I mean... dogs. While we can all think of a lovable fuzzball or two... wild dogs are an active menace in many areas. And unfortunately, I attempted to google my facts before writing this, and I got a...very uncensored view of the problems of Australian sheep herders, including the phrase"50 or 60 sheep a night".
Anyway, I always kind of assumed that the goblins simply came in as a package deal with the hobgoblins when they were making their cultural push. The goblin tribes used during this cultural interaction were likely long beaten into line by the hobgoblins that were over them.
Actually, the two are pretty distinct. The hobgoblin push happened pretty much entirely in Ironfang Invasion, and I only recall there being a a single goblin slave in that entire AP.
The goblin stuff happened more gradually, pretty much everywhere else.
The 2e entry seems a far cry from the 1e goblins that crave the flesh of sentient beings (namely humans and gnomes apparently) among other irredeemable things. It does say that times have been changing for them recently but for me it feels more like goblins have been massively retconned with 2e due to their popularity.
The idea of sterotyping like that is unpalatable anyway; the less I'm reminded of it the better :-) Another one of the things I don't use is the "racial languages" like all goblins speak goblin, or all dragons speak dragon.
As for another thing that, well, might have been retconned to some extent...
Weren't paladins in the first edition free to not follow deities? Of course the class Paladin was replaced by the overarching Champion, but I've long been under the impression that during the first edition, the Paladins of Golarion weren't tied to a god or goddess, and not even to a cause: They were specifically righteous people that gained their abilities because of it, and often followed deities or were members of orders because of their nature. Now I concede that this is purely subjective, but to me it was a pretty cool twist to the typical god-following crusaders or cause-devoted knights that were more typical to other settings at the time. During the playtest of the 2nd edition I always assumed that Champions would be just that in the end but flavoured for all the good alignements.
But I'm not totally sure if that specifically was the reasoning behind their powers! What I am sure is reading somewhere once is that only clerics had to follow a deity, though, which doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
You could possibly claim that the 1E Paladins that did not follow deities actually did but didn't know it. In much the same way as the witch and oracle get their powers from somewhere, and might not know specifically where.
I can imagine deities feeding this guy magic energy and keeping it quiet as it would break his belief in his own super-powers, or something.
PF2 made it so deities allowed alignment is fixed. Using the example of Asmodeus. He now only allowe LE followers. But I am not sure if Paladins need to follow a deity.
He allows more than LE followers, even encourages it. But he doesn't give magical power or boons to those followers as a rule.
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I assume that the goblins used as player characters are of a domesticated breed.
I mean... dogs. While we can all think of a lovable fuzzball or two... wild dogs are an active menace in many areas. And unfortunately, I attempted to google my facts before writing this, and I got a...very uncensored view of the problems of Australian sheep herders, including the phrase"50 or 60 sheep a night".
Anyway, I always kind of assumed that the goblins simply came in as a package deal with the hobgoblins when they were making their cultural push. The goblin tribes used during this cultural interaction were likely long beaten into line by the hobgoblins that were over them.
Actually, the two are pretty distinct. The hobgoblin push happened pretty much entirely in Ironfang Invasion, and I only recall there being a a single goblin slave in that entire AP.
The goblin stuff happened more gradually, pretty much everywhere else.
I see. Still, I'd imagine the goblins most likely to make the move would be the ones that took ques from hobgoblins and noticed they had opened the door to human society.
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As for another thing that, well, might have been retconned to some extent...
Weren't paladins in the first edition free to not follow deities? Of course the class Paladin was replaced by the overarching Champion, but I've long been under the impression that during the first edition, the Paladins of Golarion weren't tied to a god or goddess, and not even to a cause: They were specifically righteous people that gained their abilities because of it, and often followed deities or were members of orders because of their nature. Now I concede that this is purely subjective, but to me it was a pretty cool twist to the typical god-following crusaders or cause-devoted knights that were more typical to other settings at the time. During the playtest of the 2nd edition I always assumed that Champions would be just that in the end but flavoured for all the good alignements.
But I'm not totally sure if that specifically was the reasoning behind their powers! What I am sure is reading somewhere once is that only clerics had to follow a deity, though, which doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
PF1 was written to be setting agnostic, which is why you could have Paladins and Clerics that just believe really hard in an ideal and get their powers that way - that has never been the case in Golarion specifically (the entire idea of Razmir kinda falls apart if his followers can be clerics) and since PF2 is made for Golarion the new mechanics reflect that.
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I feel that calling 2e goblins a retcon ignores a lot of 1e material. If you go from core books to core books with no other context, it is a drastic change. But in between, there is a decade of refinement.
Through comics, fiction, adventures, supplements, Society scenarios, and more, goblins showed different faces.
The 2e status quo makes much more sense when considering the full scope of the 1e evolution.
Which is a teensy bit of a shame. The LN character being slowly indoctrinated into Asmodeus' faith and having to try and resist was a character I always wanted to try out, and it would be so much easier if they were part of the actual clergy.PF2 made it so deities allowed alignment is fixed. Using the example of Asmodeus. He now only allowe LE followers. But I am not sure if Paladins need to follow a deity.He allows more than LE followers, even encourages it. But he doesn't give magical power or boons to those followers as a rule.
Not to mention that he has a LN following in Holomog!
Creative Director
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Goblins weren't retconned at all. They can still be the awful little monsters from Burnt Offerings. They can also be paladins or anything else, just as humans can be awful monsters or paladins.
As for Asmodeus, I'm simply not comfortable publishing lore that sets up the Asmodeus and his faith as being anything other than evil. Not only does that erode Asmodeus's (and his faiths') role as being one of the setting's primary foes, having a deity and faith whose edicts encourage practices like misogyny or slavery being something that people can "skirt corners" into worshiping in a non-evil way is, to me, really pretty gross. Asmodeus and his followers work so much better as full evil. If you want a deity and faith who is lawful and who can have both evil and neutral worshipers, both Zon-Kuthon and Abadar work GREAT for that.
And of course you can absolutely still have Asmodeus cultists who hide their evil and use skilled rhetoric and wordplay and politics to disguise their true motives, but they're still evil if they count themselves as devout worshipers of Asmodeus.
You can also, of course, play a LN character being slowly indoctrinated into Asmodeus's faith. If they're a cleric they're likely worshiping Zon-Kuthon or Abadar but slowly being tempted.
Or if you want to do a divine caster who's Lawful Neutral and being indoctrinated, then there's a LOT of options. Divine sorcerers, oracles, and witches all come to mind as great options there.
But yeah, the optics of someone seeing us present Asmodeus and his faith doing all sorts of reprehensible things (as you'd expect from a devil cult) in some places and in others seeming to apologize or justify that by printing "Oh, you can be lawful neutral in some cases and that's okay" is frustrating, embarrassing, and fraught. Too many people take that online too literally as Paizo saying "you can worship a slaver or a misogynist or a devil worshiper and still not be evil." Too many of those sorts of pedantic arguments are the type of thing that make me wanna move to the woods and become a hermit.
James, thoughts on the LN worshipers of Asmoedus in Holomog, who worship what seems to be a LN female aspect of his as a goddess of language? Is there room for regional sects like that in 2e?
James, thoughts on the LN worshipers of Asmoedus in Holomog, who worship what seems to be a LN female aspect of his as a goddess of language? Is there room for regional sects like that in 2e?
That sounds like a candidate for a re-write tbh. The character worshipped in Holomog bears almost no relationship to Asmodeus, other than a nebulous tie to language. Rather than papering an existing god to fit different themes in a different regions, it seems better to use a differenet deity for Holomog. This is not real life with it's variety of interpretation, Asmodeus is a very real character/person. The Holomog reference is a good candidate for "Inner Sea person misunderstands local custom and records it as something familiar".
I think despite a swap from LN to CN, Ydajisk is an amazing candidate here, as she covers the same themes, while not being the arch-devil.
Also, Holomog has a large population of ganzi, and other ties to proteans and worship of empyreal lords, especially Shei(?) is common, so a monitor demigod fits the themes of the region better in many ways.
PF1 was written to be setting agnostic, which is why you could have Paladins and Clerics that just believe really hard in an ideal and get their powers that way - that has never been the case in Golarion specifically (the entire idea of Razmir kinda falls apart if his followers can be clerics) and since PF2 is made for Golarion the new mechanics reflect that.
You know, I was very sure of having seen around somewhere a statblock for a Rahadoumi atheist paladin, for the first edition of the game. I can't find it anywhere though, so I wonder if I just misread something at some point! You're probably into something.
Though, just to clarify, but my understanding was that any divine class but the cleric was free to not follow a deity, so on that angle at least Razmir still shouldn't have clerics. (that got powers from him) :B
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If we need a lawful neutral hellbound deity for something I'd love to see them do more with Erecura- wife of Dispater, Queen of Dis, and lawful neutral goddess of subtlety. She's not treated poorly in Hell, but it's kind of not where she belongs.
Which is a teensy bit of a shame. The LN character being slowly indoctrinated into Asmodeus' faith and having to try and resist was a character I always wanted to try out, and it would be so much easier if they were part of the actual clergy.PF2 made it so deities allowed alignment is fixed. Using the example of Asmodeus. He now only allowe LE followers. But I am not sure if Paladins need to follow a deity.He allows more than LE followers, even encourages it. But he doesn't give magical power or boons to those followers as a rule.
Wouldn’t it make more sense for the evil devil powers to be the final reward for such a character fully embracing Asmodeus’s ideals, rather than being given to them without Asmodeus knowing for sure that they are going to join.
I feel like “these amazing powers can be yours if you join!” makes more sense than “have these amazing powers, now join!” when it comes to Big A.
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James, thoughts on the LN worshipers of Asmoedus in Holomog, who worship what seems to be a LN female aspect of his as a goddess of language? Is there room for regional sects like that in 2e?
Not my favorite at all, and had I been more directly involved with that book's development I would have changed that from Asmodeus to Lissala, who to me seems like a MUCH better choice for a lawful evil deity associated with language who has some lawful neutral worshipers, and when/if we do more with Holomog, and when/if we decide to keep that, I'd probalby make that change.
There's ABSOLUTELY room for regional sects like that in any edition of Pathifnder, but that doesn't mean it's absolutely right for every deity. The version I mention above with Lissala is exactly that, after all.
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Is Lissala still around? I know that whether she is or not doesn't actually matter, at least for the purposes of her possible faithful, but I thought I read somewhere that she was gone, or dead, or something like that, but then read somewhere else that her worship was alive and well.
She absolutely still is. She was sort of in the "Gone" mode for many centuries, but ever since Rise of the Runelords took place in the timeline, her faith and presence in the setting has been returning.
And having that faith be more active in an "off the map" part of the world is a cool way to show that she was never really gone — just gone from the Inner Sea Region for the gap between Thassilon and the Age of Lost Omens.