Tiny characters and moving into and through larger creatures' spaces

[Ravingdork]

Where are the rules saying that a Tiny character can enter or move through a larger creature's space? Does it make a difference if it is a friend or foe?

Where are the rules saying that a larger creature, such as many medium characters, can't enter or move into the spaces of equal-sized or larger creatures?

[Cordell Kintner]

Size, Space, and Reach

Multiple Tiny creatures can occupy the same square. At least four can fit in a single square, though the GM might determine that even more can fit. Tiny creatures can occupy a space occupied by a larger creature as well, and if their reach is 0 feet, they must do so in order to attack.

Moving Through a Creature's Space

In most cases, you can move through the space of a creature at least three sizes larger than you (Table 9-1). This means a Medium creature can move through the space of a Gargantuan creature and a Small creature can move through the space of a Huge creature. Likewise, a bigger creature can move through the space of a creature three sizes smaller than itself or smaller. You still can’t end your movement in a space occupied by a creature.

Tiny creatures are an exception. They can move through creatures’ spaces and can even end their movement there.

[Gortle]

So a Tiny creature can happily end their turn in an enemy creatures square.

Which does lead to the perverse situation. That a Sprite (size Tiny) can end their turn in a Human (size Medium) square. But the Human can not then end their turn in the Sprites square and is forced to move away??? Hmmm I can see GMs not liking that.

A Sprite can move through a Humans square but an Human cannot move through a Sprites square - without making some form of athletics check to Shove or some such.

Ha ha ha.

[Cordell Kintner]

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to go both ways, otherwise familiars would get weird.

[Gortle]

I agree. It just doesn't say that though. There are also no friend or foe restrictions here.

Presumably your pet Rat familiar could return to your back pack or shoulder, by merely climbing up.

Should we be applying the Sprite restrictions on Familiars? Not that casters need any more problems. Familiars are minions so no. Still interesting.

As a Tiny creature, a sprite PC weighs so little and takes up so little Bulk that it doesn't cause issues to hitch a ride in a sack, shoulder, or other position on another PC. However, the amount of coordination required to ensure you don't get in each other's way or jostle each other into losing actions makes this tactic unfavorable for most fellow adventurers during combat. If you're riding along with another PC or similar non-minion intelligent creature, roll both your initiatives and use the lower of the two results. You act in either order on the same initiative count. While traveling in this way, you each gain two actions at the start of your turn, instead of three, since they spend one action keeping you balanced on their back, and you spend one action maintaining your grip.

[Ravingdork]

I love digging up little rules oddities.

[Ubertron_X]

Ravingdork wrote:

I love digging up little rules oddities.

I woudn't call it an oddity if it is an explicit exception to an existing rule.

[Arachnofiend]

For "tiny creatures can occupy the space of a larger creature" to be true, "larger creatures can occupy the space of a tiny creature" must also be true; the interpretation that puts the onus on the larger creature to leave still denies the validity of the positioning.

The weirdness from a literal interpretation is that a tiny creature can make the move into the same square but a larger creature can't - which isn't even that unreasonable given that the sprite is going to have a much easier time avoiding colliding with the dwarf than vice versa.

[shroudb]

i agree that it isnt all that weird:

i'm imagining a huge elephant (as an example) moving into the space of a halfling.

You can reasonably assume that if the halfing stays still, in order for the elephant to do so, he would need to trample or push the halfing away.

on the other side though, a halfing moving into the space of the huge elephant can just dart in between its legs.

[AlastarOG]

So does it mean a small creature can move through a huge creatures space without tumblr throughevrn if it's hostile ?

[Gortle]

AlastarOG wrote:

So does it mean a small creature can move through a huge creatures space without tumblr throughevrn if it's hostile ?

Yes however they may still want to tumble to avoid any potential attack of oppourtunity.

[HammerJack]

Gortle wrote:

AlastarOG wrote:

So does it mean a small creature can move through a huge creatures space without tumblr throughevrn if it's hostile ?

Yes however they may still want to tumble to avoid any potential attack of oppourtunity.

Tumble doesn't prevent reactions.

[Gortle]

I guess that was always my assumption as it is explicitly mentioned in the Failure of Tumble Through. Otherwise often you can just run around. Making Tumble Through a fairly narrow ability.

....

[shroudb]

Gortle wrote:

I guess that was always my assumption as it is explicitly mentioned in the Failure of Tumble Through. Otherwise often you can just run around. Making Tumble Through a fairly narrow ability.

....

the mention in the Failure is because you don't actually move (you fail to move). It just makes clear that even though you didnt move, you still provoke reactions.

And indeed, success doesn't prevent AoOs. That's why you have feats like Vexing tumble to explicit prevent the reactions.

It's indeed narrow, mainly a way to go though choke points that the enemy is blocking and to get to flank through them.

[AlastarOG]

Tumble through as a player :

Meh... Unless I'm really badly positioned or a swashbuckler.

Tumble through as a DM:

MY 12 ROGUES ARE STUCK IN THIS TINY ASS ROOM WITH THE PALADIN BLOCKING THE ONLY DOOR OUT, TUMBLE THROUGH MY DARLINGS! TUMBLE THROUGH FOR DEAR LIFE ! TUMBLE THROUGH AND KILL THE EVIL FIREBALL PEOPLE IN THE BACK!!!