Thug rogue archetype and skill unlock (intimidate)


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

how do these 2 abilities work together? Do they stack to make a higher fear effect?

Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round.

With sufficient ranks in Intimidate, you earn the following. An asterisk (*) indicates the total duration cannot exceed 1 round plus 1 round for every 5 by which you exceed the DC.

5 Ranks: If you exceed the DC to demoralize a target by at least 10, it is frightened for 1 round and shaken thereafter.* A Will save (DC = 10 + your number of ranks in Intimidate) negates the frightened condition, but the target is still shaken, even if it has the stalwart ability.

10 Ranks: If you exceed the DC to demoralize a target by at least 10, it is panicked for 1 round or frightened for 1d4 rounds (your choice) and shaken thereafter.* A Will save (DC = 10 + your number of ranks in Intimidate) negates the frightened or panicked condition, but the target is still shaken, even if it has the stalwart ability.

15 Ranks: If you exceed the DC to demoralize a target by at least 20, it is cowering for 1 round or panicked for 1d4 rounds (your choice) and frightened thereafter.* A Will save (DC = 10 + your number of ranks in Intimidate) negates the cowering, panicked, and frightened conditions, but the target is still shaken, even if it has the stalwart ability.

20 Ranks: If you exceed the DC to demoralize a target by at least 20, it is cowering for 1d4 rounds and panicked thereafter.* A Will save (DC = 10 + your number of ranks in Intimidate) negates the cowering and panicked conditions, but the target is still shaken, even if it has the stalwart ability.


I don't think one demoralize attempt should be able to stack with itself. I'm fairly sure the same source rule can and should stop that.

If you only do shaken with the skill unlock due to a successful save then the thug ability can then exchange 4+ rounds of shaken for 1 round of frightened. The extra round of shaken from thug would work too. I don't see those abilities otherwise working together.

Dark Archive

I was really hoping to force them to make the save, then give up the 4 rounds after to increase the effect


Feel like this is one of those: "Hey, we're Paizo! We made too many things that effect too many things and now too many things don't work together right with other things. THINGS!"


There is (and can be) no stacking in the traditional sense, because the Thug ability clearly says "if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds" - if the target isn't shaken, it doesn't trigger. Frightened by be described as "like shaken", but the ability asks for the shaken condition and nothing else.

The two abilities can work in sequence, though - with 10 ranks, if you beat the DC by 20, you can make the target panicked for one round via the Skill Unlock, and then convert the four rounds of shaken that would then happen afterwards into one round of frightened via the Thug ability.

It's not really clear, but I would say that the "total duration" limit of the skill unlock only applies to the end result, and thus the first part of the Thug ability can help qualify for the second part even if the duration would surpass the limit without conversion (so in the above example, beating the DC by 15 would suffice).

Dark Archive

Let's say level 5.
So if I beat the DC by 25.
They fail will save. Become frightened.
Can I convert excess 4+ rounds of shaken into frightened. What happens?
Do they become panicked?


Name Violation wrote:
Do they become panicked?

No, they would be freightened for two rounds - until the one round of being freightened that the skill unlock imposed is over, the target is not yet "shaken for 4 or more rounds", and thus the Thug ability can't have kicked in yet.

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