Flames Oracle & Stealth

[Mighty Thor 34]

So at a moderate curse level a flames oracle becomes concealed to all enemies as they become shrouded in smoke (Unless of course they have a way to overcome that concealment)

Quote:

Moderate Curse: Smoke and flickering visions of flame fill your senses more completely, and harmless flickers of obscuring flames also fill your space. You are concealed from other creatures, though as the other creatures aren't cursed themselves, they can benefit from effects that would allow them to ignore or mitigate the concealed condition, as normal. All other creatures and objects are concealed from you regardless of distance; however, when casting a fire spell, you automatically succeed at the flat check for this concealed condition for targets within 30 feet.

So by raw this would mean that the character would be able to:

Hide. Since any character that is concealed can hide

Quote:

You huddle behind cover or greater cover or deeper into concealment to become hidden, rather than observed. The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you’re observed by but that you have cover or greater cover against or are concealed from. You gain the circumstance bonus from cover or greater cover to your check.

Assuming this was successful once the character is hidden you would then be able to:

Sneak. Since any character that is hidden should be able to sneak to a new location so long as they don't end in a space where they are no longer concealed or have cover so they can become undetected

Quote:

At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement. If you have cover or greater cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain the +2 circumstance bonus from cover (or +4 from greater cover) to your Stealth check. Because you’re moving, the bonus increase from Taking Cover doesn’t apply. You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.

While I think being able to become undetected here is RAW, I think RAI it doesn't make much sense since the cloud of smoke is still very much visible. While I imagine it might take a moment for the smoke to clear after the Oracle has been in a space for a while, I am not sure that being able to become undetected makes a whole lot of sense unless the Oracle gets out of line of sight during the sneak action.

Just curious how do people think this is supposed to work RAW/RAI? I know there are some source of concealment (like Blur) that prevent you from hiding, but it seems fairly RAI that the Oracle is able to Hide, but I feel like the sneak to become undetected just doesn't make much sense in this situation. Has anyone run a character or game with a flames oracle that tried to focus on Hide/Sneak? How did you end up handling it there?

[Taja the Barbarian]

Undetected wrote:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 623 2.0

When you are undetected by a creature, that creature cannot see you at all, has no idea what space you occupy, and can't target you, though you still can be affected by abilities that target an area. When you're undetected by a creature, that creature is flat-footed to you.

A creature you're undetected by can guess which square you're in to try targeting you. It must pick a square and attempt an attack. This works like targeting a hidden creature (requiring a DC 11 flat check), but the flat check and attack roll are rolled in secret by the GM, who doesn't reveal whether the attack missed due to failing the flat check, failing the attack roll, or choosing the wrong square.

A creature can use the Seek action to try to find you.

Even when you are undetected, creatures can 'guess' which square you are in: Normally, this is going to be fairly ineffective, but even the most dim-witted foe could figure you are probably in that cloud of smoke that seems to follow you wherever you go.

While you are officially undetected, you are basically only hidden for most practical purposes (50% miss chance).

[Mighty Thor 34]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Undetected wrote:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 623 2.0

When you are undetected by a creature, that creature cannot see you at all, has no idea what space you occupy, and can't target you, though you still can be affected by abilities that target an area. When you're undetected by a creature, that creature is flat-footed to you.

A creature you're undetected by can guess which square you're in to try targeting you. It must pick a square and attempt an attack. This works like targeting a hidden creature (requiring a DC 11 flat check), but the flat check and attack roll are rolled in secret by the GM, who doesn't reveal whether the attack missed due to failing the flat check, failing the attack roll, or choosing the wrong square.

A creature can use the Seek action to try to find you.

Even when you are undetected, creatures can 'guess' which square you are in: Normally, this is going to be fairly ineffective, but even the most dim-witted foe could figure you are probably in that cloud of smoke that seems to follow you wherever you go.

While you are officially undetected, you are basically only hidden for most practical purposes (50% miss chance).

I think this is a perfect way to put it and an excellent way to explain while technically you are "undetected" that doesn't really mean anything at all unless there is some other reason to make that actually possible

[LordCyler]

Mighty Thor 34 wrote:

So at a moderate curse level a flames oracle becomes concealed to all enemies as they become shrouded in smoke (Unless of course they have a way to overcome that concealment)

That's not true. Read it again - the smoke only fills the Oracles eyes, while from an outside perspective "harmless flickers of obscuring flames fill your space".

So no smoke here, just harmless flickers of flame. This seems much closer to the effects of Mistform, Radiate Glory, and Flicker - all of which have some variation of (taken from Flicker) "As usual for concealment involving an obvious visual manifestation, you can’t use this concealment to Hide."

As a GM I might side with the player to provide them this additional benefit just because RAW it doesn't say otherwise, but I would be really surprised if they don't errata this when they get around to the APG.

[Cordell Kintner]

There's an obvious effect following you around, so no you can't hide with the concealment from the curse.

Enemies won't just think "Huh I wonder where that guy on fire went?" while there's a plume of smoke sitting there in the middle of the room.

[Squiggit]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

Enemies won't just think "Huh I wonder where that guy on fire went?"

That's not how Hidden works anyways.