Hi, my Bloodrager is probably going to end our campaign with the ability to get to ~38 STR while Large and he has Ant Haul. Just for fun I was looking at what he could lift/drag (~65 tonnes I think), but then I couldn't find how fast he can drag things.
How fast can you drag things that are too heavy to lift?
I just did a bit of searching and couldn't find this info on the web resources or on the forums. Am I missing something or is this something not in the rules?
Well that's just weird, my post didn't ... post.
Under CARRYING CAPACITY it says you can push/drag up to 5 times your heavy load.
The question is: How FAST can you push/drag things that are too heavy to lift?
EDIT: Apparently it did work, it was just hiding it from me =P
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Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character’s maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character’s Strength in the heavy load column of Table 7–4.
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them by half or more.
I would say that you are limited to a 5' movement as you are over-encumbered while pushing and dragging, but (unless you are on an incline) you can let go of the load at any moment, so you don't suffer the Dexterity loss.
Short Tons? It is 2,000 lbs for a Short ton.
(the American system is really weird)
38 = 1.200*4 (10 points above 28) = 4,800
Large *2 = 9,600
Ant Haul *3 = 28,800
Dragging *5 = 144,000 lbs = 72 short tons
65.317 metric tons.
Personally, I have some problems with the encumbrance rules. In real life, regardless of your strength, carrying a bow and a spear generate problems. To use one you need to drop or stow the other.
Last thing: yes, the forum not showing a message after it was posted is a common problem. Reloading a few times resolve it.
I would say that you are limited to a 5' movement as you are over-encumbered while pushing and dragging, but (unless you are on an incline) you can let go of the load at any moment, so you don't suffer the Dexterity loss.Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character’s maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character’s Strength in the heavy load column of Table 7–4.
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them by half or more.
Yeah that was my guess too, though it's not explicit. I figured I'd ask before putting my guess in to see if anyone had any different ideas.
Short Tons? It is 2,000 lbs for a Short ton.
(the American system is really weird)38 = 1.200*4 (10 points above 28) = 4,800
Large *2 = 9,600
Ant Haul *3 = 28,800
Dragging *5 = 144,000 lbs = 72 short tons65.317 metric tons.
Yeah I worked out how heavy it was in pounds then looked up the conversion on google. Google has US tons, Imperial tons and Tonnes, so I went with the middle value (which was Tonnes).
Personally, I have some problems with the encumbrance rules. In real life, regardless of your strength, carrying a bow and a spear generate problems. To use one you need to drop or stow the other.
Yeah ... I think that level of detail would probably be more annoying than helpful though, unless you went with something like Munchkin's "only 1 big item" system or something similar. Simple is good.
Last thing: yes, the forum not showing a message after it was posted is a common problem. Reloading a few times resolve it.
Thanks. I've also been involved in one or two threads where the first post WAS deleted for some reason and the thread was in a weird limbo, so I wasn't sure. Thanks though =)
OK so, I would rule that "dragging or pushing" 72 Tons is pretty much impossible. to get something to move, you have to overcome it's static friction force. and the frictional forces on something that weighs 72 tons is immense. you as the pusher/puller have to generate a higher frictional force to push against and since your size/weight is significantly smaller, there's just no way for you to generate that much friction.
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OK so, I would rule that "dragging or pushing" 72 Tons is pretty much impossible. to get something to move, you have to overcome it's static friction force. and the frictional forces on something that weighs 72 tons is immense. you as the pusher/puller have to generate a higher frictional force to push against and since your size/weight is significantly smaller, there's just no way for you to generate that much friction.
A "real giant" with human proportions weight would crack his bones. Flying giant hornets? LOL ...
We accept that we aren't playing in a realistic world from the start.
Yeah I'm with Diego on this one ... also it's what's weitten in the rules.
Or - since larger creatures and quadrapeds multiply their carrying capacity - you can assume those numbers are already factored in.
Also said character will have +16 to Strength checks from the Strength Surge rage power, giving him a +30 to Srength checks, the equivalent of someone with 70 STR (he has a 70% chance to beat CTHULHU in an opposed Strength check). Given that, I think his ability to apply force in the right place to get the job done is pretty extraordinary.
Carriages have wheels, which drastically increases their "dragability".
On top of that, my original question was about dragging something 5 times your carry capacity . In this case you're at your limit and are only barely able to move the object. A Horse/Donkey/etc pulling a wagon is likely not over that capacity, so the rules for pushing/dragging don't come into effect. This is also where the wheels would help, perhaps doubling or trippling the weight that can be pulled . Also remember that a Large quadruped can carry 6 times as much as a Medium Biped with the same Strength score.
As for wagons all moving at the same speeds, that's just a hole in the rules. If you want to make something more specific you can, but Paizo didn't go into detail because they assumed most players wouldn't want that level of detail for overland movement rules.
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I have the same question but am coming at it from a completely different perspective which makes me disagree with the 5' conclusion.
As MrCharisma said, you need to consider the context of the question.
How fast can you drag things that are too heavy to lift?
Here are the descriptions of the wagons.
A heavy wagon can carry 4,000 lbs of cargo. MrCharisma character can drag 144,000 lbs.
:D
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The challenge I'm having is with the cart/wagon entry of 16 miles per day. There are a wide variety of draft animals with varying speeds and strengths, so I'm not a fan of the indiscriminate 2 mph for every cart or wagon.
If you want realistic data you should search the Internet, not Paizo rules. But you should consider that the overland speed isn't simply a matter of how fast is a creature.
I recall an old western with Jhon Wayne, where one of the actors asked "We are cavalry, why we walk so much?" and the reply "To stay cavalry."Animal of burden and riding animals tire, they need to eat (and often you don't want to bring the forage for long treks with you, as it weights), they can't be motivated by ideals or greed.
You can get fast movement for short streaks or moderate speed for long streaks.
The Mongols had a postal service capable to deliver mail from one side to the other of their empire at a speed of 120-190 miles/day: Yam, but it required a chain of relay station every 20-40 miles.
The Pony Express had stations every 10 miles and covered about 1,700 miles in 10 days.
Both options require organization and resources.
Horses are faster than oxen, but they are fussier eaters, AFAIK. Mules (but not the CRB mules, those are donkeys!) are a happy middle ground for both characteristics. So the choice of the beast of burden was dependant on what was more efficient for the current need.
I believe there is rules that if you can lift something off the ground (less than double max load), you're able to "stagger around with it at said 5ft speed."
A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character’s maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character’s Strength in the heavy load column of Table: Carrying Capacity.
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them by half or more.
I would assume that being able to drag something (without the afore mentioned load carrying benefit of a cart/wagon with wheels) would be just as slow if not slower, and be entirely reliant on the terrain for if it's even traversable. A very small incline or any decline: sure; a significant hill or craggy area: absolutely not without further support to get the thing back into a collective lift off ground weight class.
If we want to look at real life...
I know, it rarely makes for a good argument in pathfinder, but...If I'm able to lift and stagger around with something, then it's not THAT heavy.. so if I go to drag or push it then I can probably do so at about my normal walking speed.. with much Greater effort of course.. maybe akin to running rules, meaning I would get exhausted after several rounds.. but I think you could definitely go at walking speed.
I think the added friction would slow you down.
Pushing a heavy trolley is very different to pushing the same heavy trolly with the wheels cut off. It's Slooow pushing something that drags on the ground.
EDIT: This is of course assuming it's too heavy to lift. If you're just dragging it coz it's annoying to carry, and not because it's too heavy then it's a dofferent story.
There is also a bit of a difference between things us normies can carry or just barely lift off the ground, and things like the giant boulders actual strong men carry that are huge, unbalancing, and they actually do stagger around extremely slowly with to make sure they aren't dropping it on themselves or falling over.