What to do about Mythic. Advice Requested. Spoilers, obviously.

[Artofregicide]

So I've wanted to run this AP for time.

Now that I have the chance, I still conflicted on how to run Mythic. Obviously, there's a very decent chance the game doesn't survive to even the first tier, but if it does I want to have a plan. I've considered reducing the number of tiers the PCs receive, as well as just working with my players so they avoid the most broken options. But Mythic breaks easy and breaks hard, especially in high level play which is already prone to imbalances.

I've heard Legendary Games fix for Mythic is pretty decent, but everything I've seen by them ups the power game not balances it out.

I do want the PCs to feel exceptionally powerful, but without some exceptionally powerful challenges it just turns into a farce. That might work for a one-shot, not an AP.

A few options (not all/any are good):

1) Run as written, game breaks around book 3 and gets hilarious around book 5. Book 6 is a joke. Beat demon lords to death with their own arms.

2) Run as written, except no mythic. Ultra hard mode, unwinnable without ridiculous optimization and cheese. Misses point of the AP.

3) Run with only 1 mythic tier, potentially other bonuses to make up the difference. Likely falls apart in later books as Mythic enemies far outpace PCs.

4) Run with 3 mythic tiers, 1 per 2 books. The same as above, maybe?

5) Run with 6 mythic tiers, 1 per book. Probably still ends with overall overpowered players.

6) Run with a different mythic system? Like Legendary Games?

My other, semi-related idea is giving the PCs a limited pool of "Mythic Investiture" which allows them to give mythic tiers to NPCs, albeit much less. Keeps major PCs from being a huge liability without overshadowing the party, and it's the PCs choice how they dole it out.

Also helps explain replacement PCs.

Anyway, thoughts, and experience requested.

[Kasoh]

So, I did 1 with a few nerfs to specific powers. I also had each PC run every mythic power pick by me for approval, which lead to me forbidding things like 'Beyond Morality', The defeat all forms of detection invisibility, Foe Biter, and one or two others.

It helped, but combat ceased to be interesting to me as GM after book 2, largely. There's a collection of souped up Stat blocks on this board by a user which were nice, but every time I used them, the fights took an extra hour. I couldn't be bothered to spend two sessions for every fight so I just gave up on that and let the party steamroll their foes.

Most of it comes from the sheer power of PCs getting full attacks every round. My game had two TWF (Brawler and Inquisitor) so, getting to pounce on monsters and get seven attacks was a bit much. It got real bad when the Inquisitor used 'Borrow Class Feature' to take the Ranger's Favored Enemy bonus. Removing all the pseudo pounce effects from Mythic (Fleet Charge and its derivatives) will probably help the most. And banning PCs from getting pounce normally is also recommended.

I know casters can get out of hand, but I didn't have that experience, mostly because the party Arcanist chose the wrong spells constantly--Though elemental immunity piercing is also something that annoyed me. In that regard, the Arcanist player was the best player because he just threw his mythic points out every chance he had and actually ran out a couple of times.

And no matter what, no one should pick Guardian if there is going to be a Champion in the party. The defensive abilities are nice, but any melee character is going to be immediately overshadowed by the absolute devastation a Champion puts out.

Strangely, the biggest, most critical thing I found that helped reign in Mythic was keeping track of immediate and swift actions, and forcing PCs to recall what ability was doing what. The conversation was always "I know you can do it, but what ability is it and what's its action cost?"

edit: Also, just being more of a hardliner on the rules of Pathfinder in General will help. I often forget cover bonuses for soft cover and reach weapons, line of effect and lighting, etc. A lot of rules get stretched and overlooked in deference to a good time or ease of play, but the PCs have such an advantage with Mythic they no longer get the benefits of GM generosity.

One way I might want to do it again if I could ever work up the effort to run this beast a third time would be to just assume control over the mythic. You pick their Mythic Path and the rank ups. They still get all the powers, but you can tailor the mythic experience to something less...number exploding.

For my group, it was the chance to play Level 20/Mythic 10 that really interested them, so any solution that reduced that was just not going to work.

[Wiggz]

My initial experience was that with all of the gonzo rules being thrown in, many without being adequately play-tested, it was just chaos. Too many options, too many rules, too many exceptions - it was almost as hard to play as it was to adjudicate and most players fell into a rut of doing just a handful of things anyway.

So, as I am often wont to do, I redesigned and dramatically simplified the rules. These are my 'Epic' rules (as opposed to 'Mythic') and they worked exceptionally well for us. If it looks like something that might work for you, you are welcome to them.

Epic Rules:

Epic Toughness: When characters reach their first Epic tier, they retroactively gain maximum hit points. They regain twice the normal amount of Hit Points after an Extended Rest or a Full Day’s Rest. When they increase their attributes every 4 levels, increase their Constitution by +1 as well.

Epic Recovery: Once characters reach their first Epic tier they automatically stabilize when reduced below 0 hit points. When below 0 hit points, they regain 1 hit point/round until they reach 1.

Epic Damage: When characters reach their first Epic Tier, damage dealt by their weapon attacks, spells or spell-like abilities is considered Epic for purposes of Damage Reduction or Energy Resistance.

Epic Template: When characters reach their first Epic Tier, select one Epic Template to apply to their characters (X is equal to the Epic level the character has achieved). Once selected this choice cannot be changed.

Epic Initiative: When a character reaches their 4th Epic Tier, in addition to their regular actions, they gain an additional standard action that may be taken at their Initiative roll -10. This does not apply to negative numbers, i.e. if your modified Initiative roll was an 11 then you would act on 11 and gain a bonus Standard action on 1; if your modified Initiative roll was a 9 you would act on a 9 and not gain the bonus action at what would have been (-1) in the initiative order.

Epic Regeneration: When a character reaches their 8th Epic Tier, they gain Regeneration (Epic) equal to their Constitution modifier and can only be permanently killed by Epic damage.

Epic Templates:

(X = the Epic level that the character has achieved.)

Archmage/Hierophant:
X times/day you may cast a spell that you know or have prepared. That spell does not use up a prepared spell slot or count against your spells per day. CL and Save DC’s for that spell are increased by +X. When you increase your attributes every 4 levels, increase your primary casting stat by +1 as well.

Fated Champion: As an immediate action X times/day, re-roll any d20 roll you just made with a bonus of +X. When you increase your attributes every 4 levels, increase your Wisdom or Constitution by +1 as well.

God Killer: As an immediate action X times/day, cause a successful ranged or melee attack that you have made to automatically critical. That attack bypasses all DR and deals maximum damage. If the target is an Epic creature, increase the critical multiplier by 1. When you increase your attributes every 4 levels, increase your Strength or Dexterity by +1 as well.

Grand Marshall: As an immediate action X times/day, grant another creature that can see or hear and understand you an additional standard action. Attacks made with that action gain a +X bonus to attack and damage rolls, spells cast with that action receive a bonus of +X to their save DC’s and skill checks made receive a +X bonus. When you increase your attributes every 4 levels, increase your Intelligence or Charisma by +1 as well.

Font of Life: Any creature within 10’ * X of you gains the Epic Recovery ability. X times a day you may touch a creature and restore them to full health as a standard action. This will also restore ability damage, cure poisons or diseases they are infected with and end any harmful conditions or effects that the creature is currently under. This ability does not dispel magic or remove curses. Once each day you may Resurrect a creature whom has died within the last 24 hours. If you do so then you lose all Font of Life abilities until your next Extended Rest. When you increase your attributes every 4 levels, increase your Wisdom or Constitution by +1 as well.

Of course, this system was designed with a number of other house rules already in mind, so it may or may not be ideal for your game.

[Tangent101]

Okay. There's one of two things you can do.

First? Restrict the players. Have them limited to 15-point builds, using only the Core Rulebook for races, racial abilities, and classes. You might also consider not allowing any Archetypes. Also, if you use Hero Points, have the Hero Points vanish once the group gains Mythic because both Hero Points AND Mythic is completely OP.

Second? Eliminate Mythic as it exists. Instead, allow the players to, upon gaining the first rank of Mythic, get three Hero Points each game day (and have the "escape death" ability only use one Hero Point - something I do for my games anyway so Hero Points are more likely to be used). The Hero Points can do anything that Hero Points can do in the rules. Each additional Mythic Rank will grant the players two more Hero Points a day. Mythic becomes far less diverse, but that static aspect will also eliminate most of the confusion.

You might, in that case, also want to eliminate any Mythic monsters and instead have these "Mythic" monsters also have Hero Points (and possibly the Advanced build).