Just to make sure I'm not making a mistake, Master's Counterspell from the Spellmaster archetype makes Clever Counterspell redundant, correct? I can safely retrain out of that without losing any functionality?
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You would lose the functionality of being able to counter someone casting from a different tradition (wizard trying to counter a druid's fireball, for example), unless you have invested far enough into a spellcasting dedication to also be a Master in their tradition.
Oooooh I hadn't even noticed the tradition limitation. Thanks!
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On top of that, Master's Counterspell still requires you have the triggering spell prepared, while Clever Counterspell only needs the triggering spell to be in your spellbook.
Master's Counterspell should be taken if you don't have Counterspell to begin with, since it's the same thing but a bit better.
Follow up question, can Dispel Magic be used as a universal counterspell like it could in 1E?
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Follow up question, can Dispel Magic be used as a universal counterspell like it could in 1E?
Nope. Dispel Magic can't counter spells when they are cast anymore.
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Well, with Clever Counterspell GM can allow it to work for everything at -2 penalty. After succesful use of Quick Recognition if the spell wasn't prepared, of course. I think that would be very appropriate.Follow up question, can Dispel Magic be used as a universal counterspell like it could in 1E?Nope. Dispel Magic can't counter spells when they are cast anymore.
In my opinion, it's against the spirit of the rule. There are too many spells that would enter this category (Globe of Invulnerability, Antimagic Field, Spell Immunity, Spell Turning) and it would push to go further with Abjuration spells by allowing Resist Energy, Chromatic Armor, Scintillating Safeguard, Elemental Absorbtion to work against energy spells, Sanctuary and Mage Armor against spell attack roll spell, Protection and Blessing of Defiance against save-based spells, etc...
The way I read Clever Counterspell, it encourages you to find a spell that is specifically well suited to counter the triggering spell, but I don't feel that the goal is to find spells that can counterspell nearly anything.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You would lose the functionality of being able to counter someone casting from a different tradition (wizard trying to counter a druid's fireball, for example), unless you have invested far enough into a spellcasting dedication to also be a Master in their tradition.
Making sure I am understanding these various feats correctly.
Counterspell allows you to disrupt casting of a spell as long as you have the same spell prepared. It doesn't matter what tradition the spell is being cast with or what proficiency you have. So a Wizard can counterspell a Druid's fireball with no problems.
Master's Counterspell does similar to Counterspell, but does not have Counterspell as a prerequisite. It does require you to have master proficiency in the skill corresponding to the tradition of the spell being cast in addition to having the same spell prepared. You also have to use a spell slot at least as high as the spell being cast. And you take a -2 penalty to the counteract check. The only benefit I see over Counterspell is that you don't have to expend the matching spell (which the matching spell could be lower level than the one being cast - only the spell slot used has to be at that level or higher).
Clever Counterspell does have Counterspell as a prerequisite. It upgrades Counterspell to be able to disrupt spells if they share a trait (excluding tradition traits) and the spell is in your spellbook. So a Wizard could counterspell a Druid's fireball with a Burning Hands spell prepared (sharing Fire trait) as long as Fireball is in their spellbook. Edit: Ah, and Clever Counterspell also has the -2 penalty to the counteract check.
It seems to me like Master's Counterspell is a replacement for Counterspell when the class that the character used to qualify for Spellmaster Archetype doesn't already have Counterspell. Master's Counterspell does similar, but has extra requirements in order to use. Clever Counterspell is a huge upgrade over Master's Counterspell.
Ehm... Its too late already: the feat explicitly allows to counterspell provided 'the prepared spell you expend must share a trait other than its tradition with the triggering spell'. All magic school traits are 'traits other than its tradition'. All Attack spells counteract each other (it's 'a trait other than its tradition'). All same energy type spells counteract each other. Emotion, Mental, Fear, and so on. It is not only in the spirit, it's explicitly allowed. If you try to meddle with this, you only add more work for yourself, very likely frustrate the player and basically destroy the feat, because that is its function.
You're right about spell attack roll spells sharing a trait. But for the others, you can't conterspell any Fire, Cold, Acid and Electricity spell unless you find a spell with all these traits (outside Cataclysm, I don't find any, and I'm fine with a level 10 spell counteracting a whole bunch of spells). So, your idea of using Abjuration spells to counteract anything the spell can help against is what I consider outside the spirit of the rule.
I won't use even traditional Counterspell without building for it with some good supporting feats (so only on wizard basically), Master's has no chance. =)
Spontaneous Counterspell works fine. I have it on my Sorcerer. I use it rarely, but when I do the impact is really high. Also, it's a level 1 feat where Wizard Counterspell is nearly unusable before Clever Counterspell (but I agree that once you have Clever Counterspell, it's the superior form of counterspelling).
the feat explicitly allows to counterspell provided 'the prepared spell you expend must share a trait other than its tradition with the triggering spell'. All magic school traits are 'traits other than its tradition'. All Attack spells counteract each other (it's 'a trait other than its tradition').
Hmm... I don't think that was intended. Though I do have to agree that this is what it literally says.
All same energy type spells counteract each other. Emotion, Mental, Fear, and so on.
These ones I am fine with.
But I don't think it is too much work to rule that it needs to share a trait that is not game mechanics but is something regarding the spell itself. So the elemental/energy traits, emotion, linguistic,... Things like that. Not Attack, School (too broad), Tradition (also too broad and is actually prevented).
Sorry, just no. 'Must share A trait', not 'must share ALL traits'. So your Fireballs counteract all Fire spells.
You're right about spell attack roll spells sharing a trait. But for the others, you can't conterspell any Fire, Cold, Acid and Electricity spell unless you find a spell with all these traits
Yes, I know. Anyway, not important. I'm not sure my example was useful anyway.
I agree that Wizard's is worse in that he could have already spent the spell he needed to Counterspell. But it's better because wizard can change spells every day. So they are very-very close actually, and both rather weak on its own.
There's also the fact that the Sorcerer can take spells for their counterspelling ability, not the Wizard. For example, my Sorcerer has Harm in his spell list, not that I intend to use it but because it can save a dramatic fight to be able to counterspell it. To do that, the Wizard has to prepare the spell which is way too expensive for the gain.
Also, if the Wizard wants to counterspell a spell, it has to expand its spell, spell that you have certainly prepared for a reason. The Sorcerer doesn't lose the ability to cast the spell by counterspelling it.You also have Signature spells that allow you to counterspell using a spell exactly one level higher or lower than the spell you intend to counterspell for maximum efficiency. Signature spells are also your best spells, meaning that they are both the most efficient to counterspell and those you really want to counterspell.
And being able to prepare new spells is hardly an asset unless you learn about the spell list of the Wizard you'll fight during the day, which is something I've never seen.
Wizard Counterspell is unusable as is, it's a once per lifetime feat. Sorcerer Counterspell is not crazy good, but it works, it will allow you to counterspell things. I use it once every 2 levels roughly.