I think RAW it's just another damage type, so it wouod be subject to hardness (which is not the same as Energy Resistance or Damage Reduction), and it would be halved before hardness is applied just as other energy types are.
This is probably something that sees a LOT of table variation though, and since it isn't specifically spelled out in the rules it's not unreasonable to change this if you don't think it fits.
Full before hardness. It's divine power and not an energy type.
Full before hardness. It's divine power and not an energy type.
Yeah that checks out.
Flame Strike doesn't mention affecting objects anywhere.
As a general advice (not based on any rules): When a spell doesn't mention anywhere that it affects objects, then assume it doesn't affect objects. Otherwise it can be a headache keeping track of everything.
As per RAW: Since Flame Strike requires a (Reflex) saving throw, it is considered an attack (that is important, because otherwise the fire damage wouldn't count as an energy attack and not deal any damage). As such, the following rules come into play:
Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).
Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
Once the saving throw issue has been resolved, the damage roll total will either deal no damage [attended; REF not an automatic fail], half damage [magical OR attended + natural 1; REF success], or full damage [unattended non-magical or REF fail] to an object. Once this total has been through this, divide the remainder by 2 and you have a divine damage total and a fire damage total:
Divine power is not an energy attack, but it is still subject to hardness. Thefore the divine damage total is only reduced by hardness, the rest fully substracted from hitpoints.
The fire damage total is an energy attack, so divide it by 2 and then apply hardness. The leftover is substracted from item hp.
Bonus question for an extra mark: do you apply hardness to both fire and divine, or just once?
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Hardness to both. It's damage from 2 different sources, that has to be dealt with separately.
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Flame Strike doesn't mention affecting objects anywhere.
As a general advice (not based on any rules): When a spell doesn't mention anywhere that it affects objects, then assume it doesn't affect objects. Otherwise it can be a headache keeping track of everything.
Energy attacks affect objects, so you need a text that says that the specific attack doesn't affect objects, or it will affect objects.
Doing as you suggest generates as many headaches as it prevents.Following your advice, most fire spells will not affect a Wall of ice.
Remember, you don't need to "keep track of everything" as a character gear automatically resists the full damage unless the character rolls a natural 1. Most unattended objects have enough hardness to disregard the damage. If the players are in the habit of casting fire spells in wooden buildings the consequences are something that they deserve.
Does the object have resistance or immunity to fire? The divine power is not a separate type of damage. It is still fire but it ignores fire resistance or immunity. Hardness in not fire resistance nor immunity so flame strike does not ignore that. So if the item does not have fire resistance or immunity it is affected as any other item.
I am not aware of any items that have fire resistance. If there are any items with fire resistance and hardness it gets more complicated. First roll all the damage and divide it in half and subtract the fire resistance from one of the halves. Next add the remaining fire damage back to the other half and divide that number in half. Subtract the items hardness from this total and the item takes any remaining damage. The rules state that you divide the damage before subtracting hardness, but it does not mention any other protections so those get full value.
Energy attacks affect objects, so you need a text that says that the specific attack doesn't affect objects, or it will affect objects.
Doing as you suggest generates as many headaches as it prevents.Following your advice, most fire spells will not affect a Wall of ice.
Remember, you don't need to "keep track of everything" as a character gear automatically resists the full damage unless the character rolls a natural 1. Most unattended objects have enough hardness to disregard the damage. If the players are in the habit of casting fire spells in wooden buildings the consequences are something that they deserve.
Unless everybody is flying/hovering, a wooden building is automatically touched and therefore an attended object.
And a Wall of Ice has specific text stating it does not follow the usual rules for objects and takes full damage from fire, not fire attacks, just from fire itself. So no, my advice has no effect on Wall of Ice, but you seem to ignore the specifics of this spell if you even look at the rules for energy attacks.
Fireball says:
... Unattended objects also take this damage. ...
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area...
Why does it say that unattended objects take this damage? Isn't this completely redundant?
On the other hand, the spell description clearly mentions that unattended objects take this damage & that all objects in the area are damaged, so a Fireball damages even objects that are attended. Congratulations, everybody is naked now after the Fireball, even on successful saves with improved evasion.
I'd say: stick with my advice instead.
Does the object have resistance or immunity to fire? The divine power is not a separate type of damage. It is still fire but it ignores fire resistance or immunity.
It's not even clear whether divine power even damages objects in the first place. It's not an energy attack.
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Unless everybody is flying/hovering, a wooden building is automatically touched and therefore an attended object.Energy attacks affect objects, so you need a text that says that the specific attack doesn't affect objects, or it will affect objects.
Doing as you suggest generates as many headaches as it prevents.Following your advice, most fire spells will not affect a Wall of ice.
Remember, you don't need to "keep track of everything" as a character gear automatically resists the full damage unless the character rolls a natural 1. Most unattended objects have enough hardness to disregard the damage. If the players are in the habit of casting fire spells in wooden buildings the consequences are something that they deserve.
Please, don't invent stuff. Yes,
An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).
but unless you disable the brain, it is clear it requires you to touch the object in a way that makes you control of it.
It not, everyone touch the planet on which he lives, so every item use the best saves between all the planet inhabitants.
And a Wall of Ice has specific text stating it does not follow the usual rules for objects and takes full damage from fire, not fire attacks, just from fire itself. So no, my advice has no effect on Wall of Ice, but you seem to ignore the specifics of this spell if you even look at the rules for energy attacks.
No. It says:
Fire can melt a wall of ice, and it deals full damage to the wall (instead of the normal half damage taken by objects).
It specifically says that it takes full damage instead of half, but suggest to have the spell deal 0 damage, not half.
Fireball says:Why does it say that unattended objects take this damage? Isn't this completely redundant?... Unattended objects also take this damage. ...
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area...
Do you want to start a discussion on how many redundant pieces of text are in the rules?
On the other hand, the spell description clearly mentions that unattended objects take this damage & that all objects in the area are damaged, so a Fireball damages even objects that are attended. Congratulations, everybody is naked now after the Fireball, even on successful saves with improved evasion.
Unless your items have magical, as they have a specific rule, yes, a fireball will damage your gear. But, as cited above, it gets a save if attended, and the full effect of the save.
I'd say: stick with my advice instead.
I completly disagree.
Please, don't invent stuff. Yes,
An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).but unless you disable the brain, it is clear it requires you to touch the object in a way that makes you control of it.
It not, everyone touch the planet on which he lives, so every item use the best saves between all the planet inhabitants.
Please, don't cut rules texts into pieces to support a false position:
Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects).
Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
What is an attended object, that is neither carried, held, wielded, worn?
I'd say any possible target of a touch attack, that you are in body/magic contact with is indeed "touched" and counts as attended. A building, a ship, a wall, ... would count as such; however, ordinary (unworked) ground or the sand underneath your feet is not.
And just because you touch the planet, doesn't mean you touch every object on the planet. If you have a point to make, stay to that instead of ludicrous twists of words.
My brain is not disabled, thank you.
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First, let's put here what was I responding to:
Unless everybody is flying/hovering, a wooden building is automatically touched and therefore an attended object.Energy attacks affect objects, so you need a text that says that the specific attack doesn't affect objects, or it will affect objects.
Doing as you suggest generates as many headaches as it prevents.Following your advice, most fire spells will not affect a Wall of ice.
Remember, you don't need to "keep track of everything" as a character gear automatically resists the full damage unless the character rolls a natural 1. Most unattended objects have enough hardness to disregard the damage. If the players are in the habit of casting fire spells in wooden buildings the consequences are something that they deserve.
Please, don't invent stuff. Yes,
An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).but unless you disable the brain, it is clear it requires you to touch the object in a way that makes you control of it.
It not, everyone touch the planet on which he lives, so every item use the best saves between all the planet inhabitants.Please, don't cut rules texts into pieces to support a false position:
Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects).
Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.What is an attended object, that is neither carried, held, wielded, worn?
I'd say any possible target of a touch attack, that you are in body/magic contact with is indeed "touched" and counts as attended. A building, a ship, a wall, ... would count as such; however, ordinary (unworked) ground or the sand underneath your feet is not.
And just because you touch the planet, doesn't mean you touch every object on the planet. If you have a point to make, stay to that instead of ludicrous twists of words.
My brain is not disabled, thank you.
Then, before accusing people of cutting pieces of the rules, you should check them.
Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).
Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
Animated Objects: Animated objects count as creatures for purposes of determining their Armor Class (do not treat them as inanimate objects).
Those are the rules for all objects.
The rules you are referring are relevant only for magic items.
A magic item doesn’t need to make a saving throw unless A magic item doesn’t need to make a saving throw unless it is unattended, it is specifically targeted by the effect, or its wielder rolls a natural 1 on his save. Magic items should always get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to them—even against attacks from which a nonmagical item would normally get no chance to save. Magic items use the same saving throw bonus for all saves, no matter what the type (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will). A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down). The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores. Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost. Magic items that take damage in excess of half their total hit points, but not more than their total hit points, gain the broken condition, and might not function properly (see the Appendix).
So, first, you declare that unattended normal objects shouldn't take damage from spells to "simplify things", then that they follow the rules of the magic item.
What next?
I'd say any possible target of a touch attack, that you are in body/magic contact with is indeed "touched" and counts as attended. A building, a ship, a wall, ... would count as such; however, ordinary (unworked) ground or the sand underneath your feet is not.
So if a ship is hit by a fire attack, it will catch fire only while the crew is absent in port? What about the ship's cat? Or the mice? Or the woodworm and the barnacles on the bottom? Do they protect it?
The rules you are referring are relevant only for magic items.
ORLY? Read the bold part again:
Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects).
Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
So I was referring to rules for magical items, that are not magical? Makes sense... somewhere... I'm sure...
So if a ship is hit by a fire attack, it will catch fire only while the crew is absent in port? What about the ship's cat? Or the mice? Or the woodworm and the barnacles on the bottom? Do they protect it?
If you hold an exact small replica of the ship in your open hand while the fireball hits, why doesn't it catch fire? Because that's how the rules work.
Look, don't try to common sense the rules here; I didn't make them, I'm just explaining them. Remember, I was the first to advice to ignore the rules in favor of common sense. But those who insist that it has to follow RAW will have to deal with the silly issues of their RAW position.
Besides, vehicles and ships have special rules all of their own, and these rules have even bigger issues I've heard.
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The rules you are referring are relevant only for magic items.ORLY? Read the bold part again:
Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects).
Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
So I was referring to rules for magical items, that are not magical? Makes sense... somewhere... I'm sure...
The whole paragraph is: "DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS", The paragraph about damaging objects is way more pertinent when speaking of normal objects.
The only information the paragraph you cited has is that they don't get a save if unattended, same as the paragraph I cited, but the section of the rules I cited has the whole part about hardness and about the halving of energy damage against objects (unless they are particularly vulnerable).
Way more pertinent when speaking of "don't apply damage to unattended objects to avoid headaches". And it defines attended objects.
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So if a ship is hit by a fire attack, it will catch fire only while the crew is absent in port? What about the ship's cat? Or the mice? Or the woodworm and the barnacles on the bottom? Do they protect it?If you hold an exact small replica of the ship in your open hand while the fireball hits, why doesn't it catch fire? Because that's how the rules work.
Look, don't try to common sense the rules here; I didn't make them, I'm just explaining them. Remember, I was the first to advice to ignore the rules in favor of common sense. But those who insist that it has to follow RAW will have to deal with the silly issues of their RAW position.
Besides, vehicles and ships have special rules all of their own, and these rules have even bigger issues I've heard.
It is silly only when you purposefully twist it to make it silly. And that is what you do.
But your "common sense" says that if you cast a fireball in a sawmill you have no problems. Please don't try launching a firework in one in my neighborhood. The result would not be pretty.
The whole paragraph is: "DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS", The paragraph about damaging objects is way more pertinent when speaking of normal objects.
No, the paragraph of the entire thing is "Saving Throw":
https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Category=Spell Descriptions&Name=Saving Throw
Sub-paragraph "Items Surviving after a Saving Throw"
Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table 9–2: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
As an example I asked you about the spell Fireball, yet you did not grasp the issues in their entirety: Fireball says that it "deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage."
At that point, according to the spell, every attended object would not take any damage at all, even if the resisting creature were to roll a natural 1 on its Reflex save. It merely matters if an object is attended, not whether it's magical, and according to the rules touching/grasping or the like is sufficient to be considered "attended".
[In my opinion this should include magical attendance (e.g. an object in your Mage Hand), however I don't know whether it's written in the rules somewhere.]
If an item is unattended & magical, it gets a save and takes damage or not accordingly.
If an item is unattended & not magical, it gets no save and takes damage.
However, the spell also says further down in its description: "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area." That means that attended objects are affected after all, since it damages "objects in the area", at which point the rules for damage on attended objects come into play [see above].
All the items that were previously ignored, because they were considered attended, will now either be affected (when the resisting creature rolled a natural 1) or not (otherwise). In the former case, for every creature who rolled a natural 1, you will have to choose 4 attended items randomly via the table 9-2. A selected item will now get its own save (if magical) or not (if not magical), and then take damage accordingly.
However, regardless of the results of the saves, regardless of Evasion or Improved Evasion, any combustible material is set on fire and certain metals are melted, since the "Saving Throw: Reflex half" entry of Fireball connected with the saving throw rules "Half: The spell deals damage, and a successful saving throw halves the damage taken (round down)." only applies to the damage, not automatically negating any further riders (unless it says so in the spell description).
Therefore, according to RAW, every combustible [not just flammable, but combustible] material inside a Fireball is invariably set on fire and most metal items are melted, magical or not, attended or not, including all your clothing, weapons, etc.
Now, if you really like to employ this game-breaking rule behemoth on every Fireball in the game, be my guest. My advice however is: Ignore damage to objects unless it's specifically desired by players/GMs.
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Now that is cleared up, let's discuss the damage flamestrike does to objects...
Now that is cleared up, let's discuss the damage flamestrike does to objects...
Well divine spells are usually positive energy, so that should help. I think I'd still feel a bit objectifried ;)
Please, don't cut rules texts into pieces to support a false position:
What is an attended object, that is neither carried, held, wielded, worn?Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects).
Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
Please, don't insert stuff into rules texts to support a false position: The section of the book (to be found on pg. 217) does not contain the italized part up front, which means it isn't just about attended objects (but rather about all items on a person). Thus, the part you bolded simply refers to unattended objects, e.g. a shield strapped to one's back. This actually matches how the item rules describe the term "attended": "being grasped, touched, or worn" CRB pg. 174
Unless everybody is flying/hovering, a wooden building is automatically touched and therefore an attended object.
Stop making stuff up. There is absolutely no indication in the rules that "touching" refers to non-hand-body parts. And indeed, if that was the case, touch spells would always instantaneously discharge because "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges." CRB pg. 186
At that point, according to the spell, every attended object would not take any damage at all, even if the resisting creature were to roll a natural 1 on its Reflex save.
Stop making stuff up. The Fireball description makes absolutely no mention of not affecting attended items at all, and thus, the above statement is objectively wrong.
However, the spell also says further down in its description: "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area." That means that attended objects are affected after all, since it damages "objects in the area", at which point the rules for damage on attended objects come into play [see above].
All the items that were previously ignored, because they were considered attended, will now either be affected (when the resisting creature rolled a natural 1) or not (otherwise).
Since there is nothing in the description that says the spell overrides the general spellcasting rules, the rule "all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack [unless the person the item is on rolls a natural 1 on the saving throw]" is still in effect.
The whole paragraph is: "DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS", The paragraph about damaging objects is way more pertinent when speaking of normal objects.
No, that quoted part does indeed apply to both magical an nonmagical items, as it is from the spell rules. As said above, it's a misquote, though, and also wasn't sourced by Theaitetos.
Please, don't insert stuff into rules texts to support a false position: The section of the book (to be found on pg. 217) does not contain the italized part up front, which means it isn't just about attended objects (but rather about all items on a person). Thus, the part you bolded simply refers to unattended objects, e.g. a shield strapped to one's back. This actually matches how the item rules describe the term "attended": "being grasped, touched, or worn" CRB pg. 174
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/damaging-objects/#TOC-Saving-Throws
Stop making stuff up. There is absolutely no indication in the rules that "touching" refers to non-hand-body parts. And indeed, if that was the case, touch spells would always instantaneously discharge because "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges." CRB pg. 186
Stop making stuff up.
1) Holding the Charge only activates after a round has passed since casting the spell. Up until that point the caster controls the charge, for example to use a charge during attacks of opportunity.Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely.
There's even a FAQ about gloves because the rules are written bad when it concerns accidental discharge -- FAQ. Even if it were just hands, which the rules do not support, then a ring would accidentally discharge a spell as well.
2) When holding a charge you can make unarmed attacks without provoking attacks of opportunity (you are considered armed). And Unarmed Attacks are, per definition, not just hands:
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Touch attacks nowhere say that it is "just hands". How else could a Demilich ever use his at-will Bestow Greater Curse ability, that requires a melee touch attack? It's just a floating skull!
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Please, don't insert stuff into rules texts to support a false position: The section of the book (to be found on pg. 217) does not contain the italized part up front, which means it isn't just about attended objects (but rather about all items on a person). Thus, the part you bolded simply refers to unattended objects, e.g. a shield strapped to one's back. This actually matches how the item rules describe the term "attended": "being grasped, touched, or worn" CRB pg. 174https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/damaging-objects/#TOC-Saving-Throws
D20PF SRD isn't a rule source. They can't cite some stuff and often do an aggregation of information from several sources, paraphrasing the original text. If you don't own the book, cite Archives of Nethys, at least it is an official source.
D20PFSRD isn't a rule source. They can't cite some stuff and often do an aggregation of information from several sources, paraphrasing the original text. If you don't own the book, cite Archives of Nethys, at least it is an official source.
I cited AoN above already! That very same paragraph! It was a direct reply to your claims:
The whole paragraph is: "DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS", The paragraph about damaging objects is way more pertinent when speaking of normal objects.No, the paragraph of the entire thing is "Saving Throw":
https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Category=Spell Descriptions&Name=Saving Throw
Sub-paragraph "Items Surviving after a Saving Throw"
Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table 9–2: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
Now I cited a second source. Seriously, this is getting absolutely ridiculous. But OK, here you go again, relevant parts bolded:
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
Partial: The spell has an effect on its subject. A successful saving throw means that some lesser effect occurs.
Half: The spell deals damage, and a successful saving throw halves the damage taken (round down).
None: No saving throw is allowed.
Disbelief: A successful save lets the subject ignore the spell’s effect.
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item’s caster level.
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
Saving Throw Difficulty Class: A saving throw against your spell has a DC of 10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability (Intelligence for a wizard, Charisma for a bard, paladin, or sorcerer, or Wisdom for a cleric, druid, or ranger). A spell’s level can vary depending on your class. Always use the spell level applicable to your class.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure, and the spell may cause damage to exposed items (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specif ies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table 9–2: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
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Stop making stuff up.
1) Holding the Charge only activates after a round has passed since casting the spell. Up until that point the caster controls the charge, for example to use a charge during attacks of opportunity.
No. A touch spell is discharged in the round in which you cast it unless you hold the charge. If "Holding the Charge" isn't active by the end of the round in which the spell is cast, the spell is lost.
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
2) When holding a charge you can make unarmed attacks without provoking attacks of opportunity (you are considered armed). And Unarmed Attacks are, per definition, not just hands:
Again, false. When holding a charge you can make Touch attacks using the spell as a weapon, not unarmed attacks. You use the normal rules for unarmed attacks, so if you don't have IUS, you provoke an AoO.
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action
or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
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D20PFSRD isn't a rule source. They can't cite some stuff and often do an aggregation of information from several sources, paraphrasing the original text. If you don't own the book, cite Archives of Nethys, at least it is an official source.I cited AoN above already! That very same paragraph! It was a direct reply to your claims:
The whole paragraph is: "DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS", The paragraph about damaging objects is way more pertinent when speaking of normal objects.No, the paragraph of the entire thing is "Saving Throw":
https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Category=Spell Descriptions&Name=Saving Throw
Sub-paragraph "Items Surviving after a Saving Throw"
Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table 9–2: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
Now I cited a second source. Seriously, this is getting absolutely ridiculous. But OK, here you go again, relevant parts bolded:
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates:...
Your citation from d20PFSRD:
Saving Throws
Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).
Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
D20 specifically adds the definition of Attended that you use, but that definition isn't present in AoO. And that was exactly what Derklord was objecting.
You can't say that the two texts say the same thing when they use different definitions.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/damaging-objects/#TOC-Saving-Throws
You know, if you had followed the basic etiquette of sourcing your quotes, I would have known that the cause of the issue wasn't you altering the rules, but you quoting a bad source. Not my fault that you didn't do so!
To be clear, "Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items:" is not part of the actual rule text, and thus my argument that the section is not only about attended items stands.
I cited AoN above already! That very same paragraph!
Doesn't change the fact that you based your argument on something not present in the actual rules. Indeed, you quoting the actual rules makes it worse, because you should have caught the mistake and corrected yourself.
1) Holding the Charge only activates after a round has passed since casting the spell.
I'm sorry if I was unclear. Let me rephase: And indeed, if that was the case, held touch spells would always instantaneously discharge because "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges." Doesn't change my argument that if "touching" would include feet (or anything worn), the act of holding the spell would be impossible.
There's even a FAQ about gloves because the rules are written bad when it concerns accidental discharge -- FAQ. Even if it were just hands, which the rules do not support, then a ring would accidentally discharge a spell as well.
Not if wearing something doesn't count as touching. That would not only explain the gauntlet FAQ, it would also solve the ring issue, and it would be in line with description of attended objects differentiating between "touched" and "worn"!
Even if it were just hands, which the rules do not support (...)
There's at least an FAQ that supports it: "However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal."
Touch attacks nowhere say that it is "just hands".
And the CRB doesn't state any negative effect of not sleeping. Some things are just implied, because the CRB was written for humanoid characters. Also, you're quoting the unarmed strike rules, which have nothing to do with touch attacks (even if you use an unarmed strike to deliver the charge of a touch spell).
There's at least an FAQ that supports it: "However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal."
The only thing these FAQs support is the fact that the "accidental discharge" is a horribly written rule.
Also, you're quoting the unarmed strike rules, which have nothing to do with touch attacks (even if you use an unarmed strike to deliver the charge of a touch spell).
No, I was quoting the Combat Rules for the Attack Action, including the section for Unarmed Attacks [what everyone can do], not Unarmed Strikes [what monks do].
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D20 specifically adds the definition of Attended that you use, but that definition isn't present in AoO.
yawn... that bolded part from D20 is a reference to the above part in that rules section, which refers to this part. It's right in front of your eyes. I even bolded it.
Again, false. When holding a charge you can make Touch attacks using the spell as a weapon, not unarmed attacks. You use the normal rules for unarmed attacks, so if you don't have IUS, you provoke an AoO.
2) When holding a charge you can make unarmed attacks without provoking attacks of opportunity (you are considered armed). And Unarmed Attacks are, per definition, not just hands:
I love how you declare the rules just "false". xD
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
So I guess the Archives of Nethys are just "false, again"? Precious! xD
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D20 specifically adds the definition of Attended that you use, but that definition isn't present in AoO.yawn... that bolded part from D20 is a reference to the above part in that rules section, which refers to this part. It's right in front of your eyes. I even bolded it.
(held, worn, grasped, or the like) =/= (Held/Wielded etc.)
In a rule argument "or the like" is really, really, different from " etc.".
Again, false. When holding a charge you can make Touch attacks using the spell as a weapon, not unarmed attacks. You use the normal rules for unarmed attacks, so if you don't have IUS, you provoke an AoO.
2) When holding a charge you can make unarmed attacks without provoking attacks of opportunity (you are considered armed). And Unarmed Attacks are, per definition, not just hands:I love how you declare the rules just "false". xD
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Again, you are changing your position.
Your statement:
2) When holding a charge you can make unarmed attacks without provoking attacks of opportunity (you are considered armed). And Unarmed Attacks are, per definition, not just hands:As already explained attacking with a held charge isn't an unarmed attack. It is all in the previous citation.
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round.Not an unarmed attack.
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.You aren't armed (by the spell) and provoke an AoO when attacking if you haven't a way to non provoke
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D20 specifically adds the definition of Attended that you use, but that definition isn't present in AoO.yawn... that bolded part from D20 is a reference to the above part in that rules section, which refers to this part. It's right in front of your eyes. I even bolded it.
(held, worn, grasped, or the like) =/= (Held/Wielded etc.)
In a rule argument "or the like" is really, really, different from " etc.".
Again, false. When holding a charge you can make Touch attacks using the spell as a weapon, not unarmed attacks. You use the normal rules for unarmed attacks, so if you don't have IUS, you provoke an AoO.
2) When holding a charge you can make unarmed attacks without provoking attacks of opportunity (you are considered armed). And Unarmed Attacks are, per definition, not just hands:I love how you declare the rules just "false". xD
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Again, you are changing your position.
Your statement:
2) When holding a charge you can make unarmed attacks without provoking attacks of opportunity (you are considered armed). And Unarmed Attacks are, per definition, not just hands:
As already explained attacking with a held charge isn't an unarmed attack. It is all in the previous citation.
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round.
Not an unarmed attack.
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
You aren't armed (by the spell) and provoke an AoO when attacking with unarmed combat if you haven't a different way non to provoke.