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glad we have yet another wizard complaining thread. i wish i lived in the world where 4 spells is less than 3
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Right now wizards both lack features and are mathematically worse. Seems cut and dry to me
1) Not liking the features and lacking features are two separate things.
2) The problem with the "mathematically worse" is that the "math" doesn't account for everything. On this character's last adventure he cast Haste on a party member twice, cast Lonstrider on himself for 8 hours, well utilized flaming sphere while attacking with his staff, cast Shape Stone twice on things instead of the skill checks required to solve the problem, Fireballed 3 times, dispelled a confusion on an ally, almost had to cast waterbreathing... Half of the things he did or could do can't truly be quantified by your "math". He was easily the MVP of that session.
Just because some people lack the creativity to utilize a class to it's fullest potential does not mean that it is a bad or lesser class. It is a case of the user lacking system mastery.
I will continue to fight against the foolish premise that wizards are lesser....
...I'll try to have an open mind. I am willing to accept an argument that reasonably mathmatizes everything that a wizard can do, both in and out of combat.
Interesting discussion. I also was confused about the distinction between the arcane and occult traditions for a while, I think I understand it now.
Right now wizards both lack features and are mathematically worse. Seems cut and dry to me1) Not liking the features and lacking features are two separate things.
2) The problem with the "mathematically worse" is that the "math" doesn't account for everything. On this character's last adventure he cast Haste on a party member twice, cast Lonstrider on himself for 8 hours, well utilized flaming sphere while attacking with his staff, cast Shape Stone twice on things instead of the skill checks required to solve the problem, Fireballed 3 times, dispelled a confusion on an ally, almost had to cast waterbreathing... Half of the things he did or could do can't truly be quantified by your "math". He was easily the MVP of that session.
Just because some people lack the creativity to utilize a class to it's fullest potential does not mean that it is a bad or lesser class. It is a case of the user lacking system mastery.
I will continue to fight against the foolish premise that wizards are lesser....
...I'll try to have an open mind. I am willing to accept an argument that reasonably mathmatizes everything that a wizard can do, both in and out of combat.
Yes there are very useful things every caster can do like what you mentioned. However you can pick a sorcerer, have the same spell list, have the same number of slots and a list of bloodline features that you get through your whole adventuring career where as a wizard gets mostly the same feats, a spell book and a couple level one choices. Also yes all casters are behind every other character in their DC, Attack rolls and saving throws. As well as perception. They are using a finite resource to have a 50% chance to do nothing with it in a lot of cases. It feels bad for a lot of people. This does exist. The house rules people add of proficiency runes and such have improved their games. I wasn't too worried about the math side with what I was thinking of here, I was trying to conceptualize ways that the wizards could be a unique option with different benefits than the other full casters. It seemed to me that the avenue for this is the best ability to utilize their repertiore and do things with their spell slots, which in a small way they already did. I feel that each school and thesis needs a feat tree that goes through all of the levels, and assuming that exists, I think my proposal isn't all that much more powerful, and I don't think these tweaks alone come anywhere close to power creep
--additional note--
My idea spring from the flavor behind unified theory and my statement above about arcane and occult in my mind being the same thing. I understand the game flavor is making arcane magic out to be "scientific", which I personally don't like the flavor of when itsy taken too literally. I think that a wizard specifically is the best choice flavor wise to do blending of traditions in various ways. At the core lorewise all magic is the same "thing" but accessed in different ways, a powerful enough wizard who is exploring the limits of magic I think would start to break into this source and be able to through their arcane lens create the same effects as other traditions in limited ways. One additional spell from one tradition per level that is cast as though they were arcane is probably a good way not to step on the toes of those focusing on those schools specifically. I also like facilitating multiclassing because it fits the flavor of studying these other traditions and incorporating it into your own, that's why I went for the multiclassing aspect but it may be too convoluted. Either a better solution or scrapping it might be necessary. This thread is too much on complaining about wizards like the person above said. Perhaps the conversation should be stopped, we've kind of exhausted a lot of what there is to say on the topic at hand
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Yes there are very useful things every caster can do like what you mentioned...power creep
That is a solid argument about the sorcerer being able to have the same list, witch too. But to counter that point, the two fourth level spells I prepped at the beginning of the day were Dim Door and lvl 4 Fireball. I also only prepped 1 lvl 3 Fireball. I cast 3 fireballs (1 lvl 4 and 2 lvl 3) and 2 Shape Stones. My point is that I changed more than 1 spell I had prepared to adapt both to situations and perspective enemies. Other classes can't do that. I won't even argue the point that if you want to be a blaster caster, wizard is not the best one. Period. In terms of DCs, all full casters are ahead of every other class in DC progression, your statement was false. Attack roll spells is correct. Wizards are with a number of other classes with saves as well as Perception. In terms of number of skills, they are near the top due to the Int base. In terms of the percentage of skills that have Int as a base they are also up there. Again, my point is not that wizards are the best class (I think bard holds that title), it is that they are not bad. Due to their options, I can definitely see how they would feel unsatisfying to play, I won't condradict that point. Merely that it seems that the wizard, more than most other classes, require a PF2 proficient player to make interesting and (maybe even) useful. I don't think that is a bad thing, but I can see how some people might.
--additional note--
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I really like the idea of wizards having a unique option to dabble into other traditions. It'd be interesting to see if one could maintain balace while possibly giving them the ability to have a slightly faster spell progression for MCed traditions. Or maybe even allow them to use Int as a base instead of the MC's standard base.
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The conversation has largely moved past this, but FWIW, I think that PF occult magic is supposed to be similar to real world occultism. A lot of the effects and themes are similar between the two, especially the fact that they're both more concerned with the unseen world than the physical.
Yes there are very useful things every caster can do like what you mentioned...power creepThat is a solid argument about the sorcerer being able to have the same list, witch too. But to counter that point, the two fourth level spells I prepped at the beginning of the day were Dim Door and lvl 4 Fireball. I also only prepped 1 lvl 3 Fireball. I cast 3 fireballs (1 lvl 4 and 2 lvl 3) and 2 Shape Stones. My point is that I changed more than 1 spell I had prepared to adapt both to situations and perspective enemies. Other classes can't do that. I won't even argue the point that if you want to be a blaster caster, wizard is not the best one. Period. In terms of DCs, all full casters are ahead of every other class in DC progression, your statement was false. Attack roll spells is correct. Wizards are with a number of other classes with saves as well as Perception. In terms of number of skills, they are near the top due to the Int base. In terms of the percentage of skills that have Int as a base they are also up there. Again, my point is not that wizards are the best class (I think bard holds that title), it is that they are not bad. Due to their options, I can definitely see how they would feel unsatisfying to play, I won't condradict that point. Merely that it seems that the wizard, more than most other classes, require a PF2 proficient player to make interesting and (maybe even) useful. I don't think that is a bad thing, but I can see how some people might.
I really like the idea of wizards having a unique option to dabble into other traditions. It'd be interesting to see if one could maintain balace while possibly giving them the ability to have a slightly faster spell progression for MCed traditions. Or maybe even allow them to use Int as a base instead of the MC's standard base.--additional note--
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Generally the DC thing is why AoE save spells are still decent because you can still lockdown a good portion of enemies with hypnotic pattern. Same thing applies to 5e. Attack rolls(which to my knowledge are all single target) and single target saves are a gamble I don't think is worth it. You expend a valuable slot, that when used is gone for the entire day, to have often a 40-60% chance of it doing little to nothing. There are examples that don't follow this, synthesia on the occult list is one example, however wizards don't get this due to it being exclusive to that list. Perhaps, more than the math, I have a problem with the spell design of some spells. Slots between 3 and 4 per level is perfectly fine I think, better than what PF1 had which I think was excessive, and saves on AoE spells are perfectly fine because you can still lockdown, kill or debuff about half of a group of enemies consistently. I also do like that wizards can have that adaptability, more of it would be a good avenue for why to pick a wizard over someone else. If it wasn't for the spells known limitation sorcerers would be better at this however, and at a similar number of spells in the spell book to a sorcerer's spells known, a sorcerer is better at choosing the right spell for the job. Arcanist casting as an optional feature like I proposed could be a way to cement an adaptive wizard as a playstyle. More tweaking necessary though
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I actually recently started a sort of thesis on the subject of Magic in Golarion, and this is one of the topics I've drafted up.
Without diving too far into the complexity of my thoughts, I've concluded this: Arcane is magic as approached through the lens of science. A bit controversial, considering many view scimce and magic as separate schools of thought. But, in reality, this isn't the case. Science, as defined, is basically the intellectual and systematic pursuit into the understanding of a subject. Thusly, if magic were real, there would be a branch of science dedicated to its study. Furthermore, I seems to me that the Arcane Tradition may in fact have explicate ties to the Material Plane. The reasons for this i haven't quite worked out, other than the fact that each Tradition seems to be tied to some layer of existance. Arcane, the Material; Primal, the Inner Sphere; Divine, the Outer Sphere; while the Occult dives into everything else more or less outside of structured reality.
Now, on the matter of the Occult, simply put, it is the form of magic that is inexplicable by any other form of Magic. Basically, the supernatural. "But wait, magic unto itself is supernatural." Well, yes, strawman I've created for this topic, this is true. But, while true for us, here in the real world anyways, it is not for those on Golarion. For them, magic is a normal and real as you and me, as are the Deities and the varied Planes of existance. Most magic can be basically explained through the Arcane, Divine, and Primal Tradtions. For everything that cannot, there is the Occult. Things like Bardic Magic, whose true nature is larelgy inexplicable, because not every musician is also a mage. The sanity draining darkness of the Dark Tapestry and their unspeakable gods that seemingly do not follow the rules of reality. Anything related to the Beyond Beyond, the Between, or the Beneath; all theoretical spaces outside the observable reaches of the known reality and its planes. Hell, probably even the very source of magic itselfs probably falls into this category: that being the Occult.
That is my basic take on it. Well... basic... complicated.... take, which I've spent a handful of hours researching in and out of the lore or Pathfinder to justify. Lol
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I think folks are overcomplicating this;
Arcane= Standard D&D Wizard spell list with a very small number of cuts (finger of death and the like)
Divine= Standard D&D Cleric spell list with a large pile of buffs cut
Primal= Standard D&D Druid Spell list + wizard damaging spells
Occult= Bard spell list expanded with the cleric/wizard support overlap plus force, tentacle and color spells, because Lovecraft.
All the bits about essences and whatnot is just window dressing and post hoc justifications.
Cleric buffs were problematic for PF2 so they got cut.
Druids spells were lacking, so they got a layer of blasting.
Wizards got to keep most of their stuff because they're wizards.
Bards had to get expanded to 10 levels, so they got 4 and a half decades of the accumulated D&D weirdness.
Without diving too far into the complexity of my thoughts, I've concluded this: Arcane is magic as approached through the lens of science. A bit controversial, considering many view scimce and magic as separate schools of thought. But, in reality, this isn't the case. Science, as defined, is basically the intellectual and systematic pursuit into the understanding of a subject. Thusly, if magic were real, there would be a branch of science dedicated to its study.
I am going to assume that by "systematic and intellectual" you mean logical, because I think the point is weaker with these vaguer terms. Many things that aren't science are intellectual and systematized, like math and philosophy. Science isn't just logical study, there is philosophy and ideology involved in science. Firstly is methodological naturalism which limits science to the natural and excludes the supernatural. Secondly science uses a specific method, the scientific method, a process of reproducible experiments(I won't go into the problem of reproduction here). Applying logic to something doesn't make it "scientific". The various theological arguments are attempts at using logic to justify god's existence in the real world. The best of which, the Kalam Cosmological argument, uses deductive reason to forge a pretty compelling conclusion(and I'm an atheist), no science is involved here
Furthermore, I seems to me that the Arcane Tradition may in fact have explicate ties to the Material Plane. The reasons for this i haven't quite worked out, other than the fact that each Tradition seems to be tied to some layer of existance. Arcane, the Material; Primal, the Inner Sphere; Divine, the Outer Sphere; while the Occult dives into everything else more or less outside of structured reality.
Magic is a unified "substance" or force that permeates all planes of existence in canon as far as I can tell and the feat I've mentioned "Unified Theory" suggests as much. Arcane seems maybe to focus on how magic affects the physical or material, but these kinds of magic don't seem "plane bound" a lot of arcane magic pulls from other planes. you can still do negative energy damage by pulling from the negative energy plane, you still can conjure elementals from the elemental planes, you can still travel between planes and so on
Now, on the matter of the Occult, simply put, it is the form of magic that is inexplicable by any other form of Magic. Basically, the supernatural. "But wait, magic unto itself is supernatural." Well, yes, strawman I've created for this topic, this is true. But, while true for us, here in the real world anyways, it is not for those on Golarion. For them, magic is a normal and real as you and me, as are the Deities and the varied Planes of existance. Most magic can be basically explained through the Arcane, Divine, and Primal Tradtions. For everything that cannot, there is the Occult. Things like Bardic Magic, whose true nature is larelgy inexplicable, because not every musician is also a mage. The sanity draining darkness of the Dark Tapestry and their unspeakable gods that seemingly do not follow the rules of reality. Anything related to the Beyond Beyond, the Between, or the Beneath; all theoretical spaces outside the observable reaches of the known reality and its planes. Hell, probably even the very source of magic...
Your argument seems to be "Magic cannot be supernatural because it is real," and also "magic cannot be supernatural because it's explainable". which assumes two different premises, one "supernatural means 'unreal'" or two "supernatural means that something cannot be explained." Both of which are not accurate. Supernatural means that a thing is beyond the natural. A god(or God) is supernatural categorically, regardless of realness. Your second idea that supernatural is the unexplainable is also incorrect. For example psychic powers are a supernatural phenomena, however I can explain the existence of them through a certain form of metaphysics(the philosophical category). In this case the metaphysics is Idealism, the position that the fundamental substance of reality is thoughts, or ideas, as opposed to materialism, which posits the fundamental substance is matter. Idealism explains psychic powers by claiming that if all that exists is thought, than our thoughts which make up reality can therefore change reality. Think of how people can do superhuman feats in The Matrix, but no simulation. Magic is itself supernatural because, like psychic powers, it shapes reality. You can turn one substance to another, negate space etc, all by tapping into this metaphysical source. I don't know what metaphysics is in Galorion, but certainly everything points to magic being metaphysical/supernatural. I don't see how it couldn't
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Primal and Arcane deal with the tangible reality (the Material essence), which in Golarion includes energy and thus elemental, positive and negative. In this way, they are concerned with the natural rather than the supernatural. The latter seems relevant to the Spiritual essence, which is the province of Occult and Divine.
Arcane is also of the Mental essence, which means study and logic. Very likely, Arcane magic follows the scientific method and can be reliably repeated, demonstrated and taught. Which is why there are universities of magic on Golarion.
Also I do not think we can use the RL metaphysical models to explain the Golarion metaphysics. The difference between science and magic in Golarion is likely not the one we draw IRL.
Primal and Arcane deal with the tangible reality (the Material essence), which in Golarion includes energy and thus elemental, positive and negative. In this way, they are concerned with the natural rather than the supernatural. The latter seems relevant to the Spiritual essence, which is the province of Occult and Divine.
Arcane is also of the Mental essence, which means study and logic. Very likely, Arcane magic follows the scientific method and can be reliably repeated, demonstrated and taught. Which is why there are universities of magic on Golarion.
Also I do not think we can use the RL metaphysical models to explain the Golarion metaphysics. The difference between science and magic in Golarion is likely not the one we draw IRL.
The material plane is a specific one separate from the inner planes which includes the energy planes and the elemental planes. Likewise Arcane study has a model of the planes all the way out. Including the esoteric planes, the outerplanes, the great beyond and the transitive planes. Speaking of the transitive, I believe planar travel via conjuration moves through the astral plane, a non-material plane, arcane spells also interact with the ethereal plane, like secret chest which puts a hidden chest in the ethereal plane and with force spells(which are also on the occult list mind you). Granted I can't find the spell "etherealness" anywhere and only ethereal jaunt on the occult list. Which is strange if you ask me. I also do think we can apply real world metaphysics, you did so yourself in your first three sentences. Some works of fiction think about this more than others, like how Lovecaft's works use Objective Idealism, in that all of reality is constructed from the thoughts of Azathoth, Azathoth's dreams being our reality(dreams are real places in lovecraft's fiction), but if the lore peeps at Paizo haven't thought about the metaphysics of Galorion, they should