We recently started work on making a pathfinder2e version of our trap generator(Almost done with the conversions, yay!)
As you can see above the current version is fairly barebones but functional, basically just randoming between low, high, and extreme values for a few stats as outlined in the monster and hazard creation guidelines.
So, being the brilliant internet that you are, how would you improve it?
I'll start with a few features I was considering
1. Different trap types. Pit, fireball, etc
2. Poisons? I've got them in PF1 trap gen, but they work differently here, mostly just being a damage increase. Maybe still worth including?
3. Extra stat randomization? Currently the traps will be fairly repeative in their numbers. A CR 0 trap will always have 13, 16, or 19 for its stealth DC based on low, high, or extreme stealth random. I could apply another random modifier to this, something like -2 through 2 making the DC range 11 to 21. Downside is that a small number of traps might randomly roll very high or low across the board making them imbalanced.
Thoughts?
As always feedback and suggestions appreciated.
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Playing Starfinder for a couple of years has given me an appreciation of how that monster-building system is like for the players. And PF2 uses a very similar one for hazards and monsters.
Basically, the numbers for a given monster (or trap) of the same level, are going to be very similar. One level 5 monster has quite similar stats to another level 5 one. As a player, you can probably tell after two-three rounds what level enemy you're fighting just by looking at the numbers the enemy is rolling and what you need to hit.
And as it turns out, this is totally fine. It doesn't make the monster any less fun just because the numbers are predictable (call them "balanced").
What is much, much more important is whether the monster has an interesting look and feel, has a reason for being there, is placed in an interesting way on the map, has tactics. Also, whether it has a neat gimmicky ability or two.
So to answer your question: I don't think you need to do a lot of stat randomization. But different trap types are really interesting - you don't want this to seem like an encounter with the wandering damage table.
Random tables can work quite well for prompting GM creativity. Something as simple as a [adjective][noun] generation can work.
A "slimy pit trap", a "frozen arrow trap", a "screaming collapsing ceiling" all are much more interesting than a bit of variation in the damage and to-hit.
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Also, for formatting, adding enough styling and in such a way that you can copy-paste it into a word document so that it retains bold/italic layout would be really handy.
If I had to speak about the numbers, I've seen only one issue: If I ask for a second level trap, it gives me a trap that can't be disabled without Expert Thievery. If I put such a trap against my first level party (which should be a valid encounter) they end up in quite a stupid situation. You should ask for the party level and use proficiency gating only in cases where the party may have a chance to have such proficiency.
Otherwise, I strongly agree with Ascalaphus. What makes a trap interesting are its abilities, not its numbers.
Interesting suggestions, and not at all what I expected. But that's why I'm farming out the creativity to you smart people.
So it sounds like everybody(out of the current small sample size) is fine with the numbers as is/doesn't regard them as a priority. So I'll leave those be for now.
As for the CR 2 trap with expert profiency, that was a mistake on my greater than/less than checks. Should be fixed now and not require expert till level 5 as suggested by the hazard guidelines.
For adjective/noun pairing we should be able to do this. I'll have to start compiling a list of good candidates. Feel free to throw suggestions if anyone has some cool ideas.
Regarding the formatting this should be easy. If it isn't too much trouble, would you be willing to show me an example of what you'd like the output to look like?
EDIT: And I suppose I should ask how much an issue it would be if certain adjective/noun pairings are unusual combos. Like a frozen collapsing ceiling, or a shocking pit trap or some such. Not that those couldn't in theory happen, but less normal than something like flaming arrow
EDIT: And I suppose I should ask how much an issue it would be if certain adjective/noun pairings are unusual combos. Like a frozen collapsing ceiling, or a shocking pit trap or some such. Not that those couldn't in theory happen, but less normal than something like flaming arrow
I think it's fine and even funny. I prefer a random generator that gives me some crazy combos than a random generator that gives me always the same kind of traps. If I find a combo to be too crazy, I can click on generate again.
As a side note, I find interesting traps to be the one affecting the characters on the long run. Dealing damage is not fun as you can just use Medicine afterwards. I prefer traps which inflict long duration conditions (Diseases, Doomed, Drained, etc...) or traps with an impact on the dungeon (alarms, loss of treasure, etc...).
A quick note that you have a typo in your output: "profiency" should be "proficiency".
For word suggestions:
Adjectives
- Energy traits
- Affliction-related: poisonous, diseased, cursed
- Nature: alchemical, arcane, divine, occult, phantasmal (illusion trait), primal, psychic (emotion or mental trait)
- Modifiers: crushing, deceitful, gentle, grinding, insidious, nimble, slow, vicious, wicked
Nouns
- Set dressing: altar, block, boulder, chest, door, gate, lock, pedestal, pillar, pit, skull, statue, wall, web
- Delivery: arrow, blade, gas, glyph, needle, spear
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EDIT: And I suppose I should ask how much an issue it would be if certain adjective/noun pairings are unusual combos. Like a frozen collapsing ceiling, or a shocking pit trap or some such. Not that those couldn't in theory happen, but less normal than something like flaming arrowI think it's fine and even funny. I prefer a random generator that gives me some crazy combos than a random generator that gives me always the same kind of traps. If I find a combo to be too crazy, I can click on generate again.
I agree - if you view the generator more as giving you a 75% starting point instead of a 100% finished trap, then you gain a lot of design freedom. If I get a "frozen collapsing ceiling" as GM I start thinking what that might mean - maybe the ceiling is made out of ice that will break at loud noises?
As a side note, I find interesting traps to be the one affecting the characters on the long run. Dealing damage is not fun as you can just use Medicine afterwards. I prefer traps which inflict long duration conditions (Diseases, Doomed, Drained, etc...) or traps with an impact on the dungeon (alarms, loss of treasure, etc...).
Yes and no. I think they discuss this a bit in the GMG, traps can be used in multiple ways.
* Complex hazards that keep running for multiple rounds and are basically an encounter on their own (or paired with creatures), but they require complicated handling.
* Simple once and done hazards/traps that just do damage. Don't work well as standalone, because you can then use Medicine to heal up. But they can work well as added problem inside a combat with creatures, or when part of the challenge is that there isn't any resting time, for example when there are enemies chasing you through the dungeon.
* Simple hazards that cause external effects (raise the alarm, smash a piece of loot).
* Simple hazards that if you "fail" them make the next encounter harder, like inflicting a condition.
Overall I think for many traps, they can actually be more interesting if you know they're there (but maybe not precisely where). For example, you know or strongly suspect there are some traps in the room with a kobold sorcerer at the far end, because what are the odds that he's just really that exposed with no catch? Or you know there's a pit trap over there but you're a rogue, and maybe you can make it to the other side anyway? Or maybe your fighter can actually shove an enemy into the pit?
So to build on what SuperBidi said, you could have a "consequences" section suggesting what this trap could do more than just damage, when embedded in a dungeon.
More great stuff. I've started with Coriolis' list of word suggestions and am adding to it.
I very much like the idea of a consequences section. I am compiling that stuff as well. Regarding the specifics on this, what are the preferences? Should 100% of traps have consequences, some lesser percent of the time, only for simple traps, only if the option is toggled on, etc?
Hopefully I'll be able to have the beginnings of that stuff added to the program tomorrow.
And I have fixed the mispelling of proficiency. Thanks for the heads up on that.
I very much like the idea of a consequences section. I am compiling that stuff as well. Regarding the specifics on this, what are the preferences? Should 100% of traps have consequences, some lesser percent of the time, only for simple traps, only if the option is toggled on, etc?
Either (a) always (b) user option.
They're functionally identical in that if the user doesn't like the consequences they can not use it.The other option is to have a "does nothing special" possibility (ie randomly generated no consequences at the same weight as any other option) but that boosts its other stats in some way.
I've begun adding the various trap combos in. I even got the dreaded CR 6 frost ceiling lol:
You have a trapped statue
Complexity: simple
Stealth DC 21 proficiency Expert
Disable Thievery DC 28 (Expert)
AC N/A, Fort +18, Ref +17
Frost Collapsing Ceiling +20, Damage 4d8+18
If your trap goes off it alerts all nearby enemies
Still needs some formatting work and bulking out the options list, but it is getting there I think.
@Perpdepog I'll be adding in an initiative stat for the complex traps so they can act every round. Some traps like the frost ceiling might not make sense acting repeatedly. I may try to separate those out once some other work is done.
Some traps like the frost ceiling might not make sense acting repeatedly. I may try to separate those out once some other work is done.
That's pretty much a "number of charges" problem. Mechanical effects can only trigger so many times before needing to be reloaded/reset. A collapsing ceiling would have 1 "charge."
(Magic traps could have charges too, but tend to be the sorts that are self-resetting)
That's pretty much a "number of charges" problem. Mechanical effects can only trigger so many times before needing to be reloaded/reset. A collapsing ceiling would have 1 "charge."(Magic traps could have charges too, but tend to be the sorts that are self-resetting)
That would be an interesting option, although I don't know how I'd balance it properly. A trap with 1 charge would be much weaker than a similar trap with 4 charges.
For now I'll just separate them out into stuff that only makes sense for a single use(I.E. collapsing ceiling, drop pit, etc).
Hopefully I didn't miss anything, but I believe I've added all the currently suggested material. I'll still be adding stuff to it, but I am reasonably happy. Hopefully everyone else is too.
I'll probably be beginning the dungeon2 next week. Should be relatively easy, just pulls from loot, trap, and monster and outputs the various rooms.
Is there a non-random alternative? A trap-builder option where one can plug in the details and see what's available at certain levels?
Are the random numbers balanced? Could a trap end up with high attack & damage while another trap at the same level and otherwise the same had low attack & damage?
Are there a wide variety of effects & conditions inflicted? And do they lower the hit point damage to balance?
One might want to tie certain descriptors/energy types to conditions (though not necessarily for each instance). So "fiery" or "acidic" might occasionally have Persistent damage, and a lower base damage (not that the other types of damage couldn't do the same!) . Cold traps might lower movement speed and/or inflict Slowed, sickened from the sewage trap, etc.
Whether a trap/hazard is slightly or much weaker due to number of charges ties directly to how often one might expect the party to suffer its effects and when. If they can just roll boulders or chuck corpses onto the trigger, the extra charges are meaningless while if stuck in a pit or locked room with a trap that recurs quickly, each charge matters a lot.
The adjectives, sites, & combos seem endless! Darkness, stairs, blinding, whatever. May want a random number of traits so one might get a simple pit or a "mobile frozen, shocking pit of locusts" (not in equal odds of course).
The old AD&D DMG had lists in the back for flavor & dungeon dressing that might be useful (and beat anything I've seen elsewhere). Roleplayingtips.com (et al) I think have some lists too.
ETA: And don't forget Grimtooth's as a source of inspiration or dread!
Is there a non-random alternative? A trap-builder option where one can plug in the details and see what's available at certain levels?
That isn't currently available. Are you asking for essentially what we have in our kingdom generator with option selections? kingdom Forgive the footer, it is currently the bane of our existance.
Are the random numbers balanced? Could a trap end up with high attack & damage while another trap at the same level and otherwise the same had low attack & damage?
The random numbers don't look at each other at all. So you could end up with a trap with a high stealth modifier, thievery DC, etc. As for the attack and damage those numbers are fixed. A CR 5 complex trap will have the same attack and damage every time. +15 to hit for 2d8+7 in this case.
Are there a wide variety of effects & conditions inflicted? And do they lower the hit point damage to balance?
Currently the consequences section has alarm, equipment damage, summon a monster, and a handful of debuffs(doomed, drained, enfeebled, and wounded). I plan to add some more debuffs, and maybe something like a timer to the consequence section(If the trap goes off you have a minute to exit the temple or some such). The consequence section does not impact the damage.
One might want to tie certain descriptors/energy types to conditions (though not necessarily for each instance). So "fiery" or "acidic" might occasionally have Persistent damage, and a lower base damage (not that the other types of damage couldn't do the same!) . Cold traps might lower movement speed and/or inflict Slowed, sickened from the sewage trap, etc.
This is a pretty cool idea. Although a bit tricky to implement.
Whether a trap/hazard is slightly or much weaker due to number of charges ties directly to how often one might expect the party to suffer its effects and when. If they can just roll boulders or chuck corpses onto the trigger, the extra charges are meaningless while if stuck in a pit or locked room with a trap that recurs quickly, each charge matters a lot.
This will mostly be on the GMs end. Speaking for myself I usually put the traps where they make the most narrative sense or create the most interesting encounters. But that is hard to dictate in a random generator.
The adjectives, sites, & combos seem endless! Darkness, stairs, blinding, whatever. May want a random number of traits so one might get a simple pit or a "mobile frozen, shocking pit of locusts" (not in equal odds of course).
The old AD&D DMG had lists in the back for flavor & dungeon dressing that might be useful (and beat anything I've seen elsewhere). Roleplayingtips.com (et al) I think have some lists too.ETA: And don't forget Grimtooth's as a source of inspiration or dread!
Those look like some good resources I will be looking at further. I wasn't aware of Grimtooth's, it looks pretty entertaining.
That's pretty much a "number of charges" problem. Mechanical effects can only trigger so many times before needing to be reloaded/reset. A collapsing ceiling would have 1 "charge."(Magic traps could have charges too, but tend to be the sorts that are self-resetting)
That would be an interesting option, although I don't know how I'd balance it properly. A trap with 1 charge would be much weaker than a similar trap with 4 charges.
For now I'll just separate them out into stuff that only makes sense for a single use(I.E. collapsing ceiling, drop pit, etc).
Oh sure, that's all I meant. For the immediate now you just do "stuff that makes sense" to be 1 charge and everything else can be effectively infinite, or some large-ish number (it fires arrows, maybe it can only do that 10 times). Not trying to balance it as a random element.