Managing / providing PFS #'s for others?


Organized Play General Discussion

1/5

I am have started running some PF2/PFS games for younger children. How do I provide them with PFS membership numbers so that I can record their progress and their ACP purchases. I do not want them to have to get online (and I'm sure their parents don't either)?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Here. Organized play. My organized play. sign in. GM/Event Coordinator
Scroll down. Download 10 cards.

4/5 ****

They need accounts to spend the AcP though.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Captain, Australia—NSW—Greater West

My two kids were too young to hold their own accounts when they started to play. As a parent, I created a gmail address and then a Paizo account for them, and handed it over to them when I judged them old enough to be responsible.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

According to Paizo's Privacy Policy children under 16 need a parent/guardian's permission to create an account. If you put in a birthday that would make the account younger than 16 you have to put in a parent/guardian's e-mail as well as the child's.

Beyond that, it's just a matter of who the parent trusts with the account. There's no way to designate someone else as having read/write access to parts of an account; they would have to actually give out the login information. The good news is that I don't see anything in Paizo's policies banning that. I would just get an e-mail from the parents saying something like "I'm letting (real name of NN959) take care of the online stuff at Paizo.com associated with PFS for (child's name)." You don't want to create such an account without a parent's permission.

4/5 ****

Paizo's minor account management requires signed letters, not just email confirmation.

1/5

First, thank you all for offering some advice/guidance.

It sounds like I'd have to create both a Paizo and Email account for each child and manage it myself, or have the parents manage it.

1. It seems that as long as I don't provide any personal information of the children in the profiles, I wouldn't need any written authorization from the parents. Obviously that parents would be informed of how I would plan to manage it for the children.

2. I would need an email account for each child, and use that to create their Paizo characters. In person, I could solicit their ACP choices and update their accounts as necessary.

3. At any point, I could turn over the email and Paizo account login information to the parents.

Is any of this in violation of PFS policies?

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Robert Hetherington wrote:
Paizo's minor account management requires signed letters, not just email confirmation.

Sigh, I'm sure there's some legal corporate CYA reason for that. In any event, can you link that policy, Rob? I can't find anything searching those terms.

I was just thinking of it in personal terms, not what eventualities Paizo might be concerned about. Like if I asked you to log into my account (the password is "p@55vv0rd") and take care of some things while I didn't have internet access, an e-mail stating that you were doing it at my request would be sufficient in any sane world.

Spoiler:
That's not really my password.


Kevin Willis wrote:
Robert Hetherington wrote:
Paizo's minor account management requires signed letters, not just email confirmation.
Sigh, I'm sure there's some legal corporate CYA reason for that. In any event, can you link that policy, Rob?

Here's the relevant COOPA section

Verifiable Parental Consent

2/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Spoiler:
That's so totally his real password!

Quote:
It seems that as long as I don't provide any personal information of the children in the profiles, I wouldn't need any written authorization from the parents.

You can't/shouldn't be creating accounts for someone without using personal information because name and date of birth can't be changed after the account is created.

You create an account for Bob Bobson whose date of birth is 10/4/2007 using the pseudonym Fred Fredson with date of birth 9/10/1982, assign a PFS # to Fred Fredson, accrue AcP as Fred Fredson, and now Bob Bobson's Organized Play card reads "Fred Fredson."

Assuming Bob wants to control his own account when he ages up, he probably doesn't want to explain to every event that knows him as Bob Bobson why he's using Fred Fredson's card nor make a new account under his own name and DOB under his own control and lose the AcP accrual.

EDIT: A better plan would be to print out the Welcome to OP Cards to give each of them a unique OP number then provide the parents with instructions on setting up a Paizo account so they can manage their AcP, if the parents want to. If, after that, the parents want you to manage their children's AcP, they can write a letter and provide you with the log in details.

4/5 ****

Kevin Willis wrote:
Robert Hetherington wrote:
Paizo's minor account management requires signed letters, not just email confirmation.

Sigh, I'm sure there's some legal corporate CYA reason for that. In any event, can you link that policy, Rob? I can't find anything searching those terms.

I found it attempting to create a minor account recently.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Robert Hetherington wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:
Robert Hetherington wrote:
Paizo's minor account management requires signed letters, not just email confirmation.

Sigh, I'm sure there's some legal corporate CYA reason for that. In any event, can you link that policy, Rob? I can't find anything searching those terms.

I found it attempting to create a minor account recently.

That explains it. I just put in a birthdate that made me nine years old; I didn't go any further down the account creation path.

We still may be talking about slightly different things, though. If I'm following you (and CrystalSeas' COPPA link) properly, the signed letter is required to be provided to Paizo by the parent in order for the account to be created. Once the account is created, nothing is physically (thought perhaps something is legally) stopping the parent from simply giving the name/password to another person without involving Paizo. Not going to name names, but I know several couples/families where only one person actually visits the Paizo website. Everyone is an active player and everyone has an individual account, but only one person actually knows the logins and passwords out of the whole group.

This might be one of those voids that will never get a Paizo comment and fall into "don't ask, don't tell." I strongly suspect that the official answer is that only the parent is allowed to access the account. I'm in favor of this in general terms. The downside is that the kids are now locked out of a lot of the OP material unless the parent is willing to dedicate the time to do the ACP/boon buying.

Another casualty of the move to paperless. I know how hard OPF has pushed for Kid's Track and similar initiatives in the past, so this may need to go in the hopper of potential website upgrades. Allowing the parents/guardians to give a third party limited access to a child's account. Just to see and manage characters, not to see personal info.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

2 people marked this as a favorite.

This seems like a simple matter of the parents creating an account for their minor children and either helping them manage it, or provide the login info to the organizer of their kid's games to manage for them. That way no one is inconvenienced and the kids get to benefit from the rewards program.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

TwilightKnight wrote:
This seems like a simple matter of the parents creating an account for their minor children and either helping them manage it, or provide the login info to the organizer of their kid's games to manage for them. That way no one is inconvenienced and the kids get to benefit from the rewards program.

That is the practical solution, and is what I was suggesting in my first post. I strongly suspect that from a legal standpoint if Paizo was to say anything on the subject they would have to say "only parents are allowed to access the account." Silence is much more likely.

You should definitely ask for something in writing from the parents saying that they were authorizing you to access the kids' accounts.

Spoiler:
U.S. Internet laws being what they are, the providers (Paizo, in this case) are generally protected from lawsuits if something happens because a user is careless with their account (such as sharing login info with someone else). But if the provider even slightly encourages such activity they then potentially lose that shield.

A "designated administrator" function that allowed a parent to designate another user the ability to manage characters but not to access any personal information is a potential workaround to keep that shield intact. Is it worth the programming effort? Eh, I don't know. I do know that Organized Play has been big on encouraging youth to play.

And yes I know that in practical terms if a parent is giving another adult the login information for their child, that adult almost certainly already has far more personal information about the child than the account would provide. Liability lawsuits (and steps taken to protect against liability lawsuits) often have very little to do with common sense or reality.

1/5

Agan, thanks to those who are weighing in.

Blake's Tiger wrote:
You can't/shouldn't be creating accounts for someone without using personal information because name and date of birth can't be changed after the account is created.

I don't see how that follows. There's nothing preventing people from using fictitious information.

Quote:
You create an account for Bob Bobson whose date of birth is 10/4/2007 using the pseudonym Fred Fredson with date of birth 9/10/1982, assign a PFS # to Fred Fredson, accrue AcP as Fred Fredson, and now Bob Bobson's Organized Play card reads "Fred Fredson."

And? I don't use my real name or date of brith on the Paizo account and it has not been an issue for me. Nobody cares. Plus, the Paizo account name would most likely be name of the person's first/primary character.

Quote:
EDIT: A better plan would be to print out the Welcome to OP Cards to give each of them a unique OP number then provide the parents with instructions on setting up a Paizo account so they can manage their AcP, if the parents want to. If, after that, the parents want you to manage their children's AcP, they can write a letter and provide you with the log in details.

BNW already made the suggestion to print out the cards, which I've done.

It's unrealistic to expect the parents to manage this as they will have little to no understanding of the game and be unable to provide any guidance to the child. If I really expect the Boon/ACP to be a part of this endeavor, I would undoubtedly need to print out all the available boons and explain them. In addition, I would need to know who had what boons so they could select them prior to each session.

2/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

First, you may not use your real name or date of birth, but the minor for which you are making an account may have opinions about how they want their account to look when they're older.

Second...

Quote:
It's unrealistic to expect the parents to manage this as they will have little to no understanding of the game and be unable to provide any guidance to the child. If I really expect the Boon/ACP to be a part of this endeavor, I would undoubtedly need to print out all the available boons and explain them. In addition, I would need to know who had what boons so they could select them prior to each session.

As a professional guardian of children, it does not matter how realistic is may or may not be to expect a parent to manage their child's online account. However, they are the parent and they should have as much say as they want on their minor children's online presence. No matter your personal feelings on the matter.

As a parent, I would be extremely troubled to find an adult of any relationship to my child had made an online account linked to message boards and purchasing functions for my child.

Not every parent would care. But you owe the parents the respect to give them the choice to decline the account creation, take responsibility for it themselves, or delegate that authority to you. You don't simply take that authority from a parent.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
As a parent, I would be extremely troubled to find an adult of any relationship to my child had made an online account linked to message boards and purchasing functions for my child.

That is sufficient for someone with "mandatory reporting" requirements to make a report, whether or not the parents care.

That would be, for example, a teacher overhears the kid telling a friend that they had an online account that some games store made for them. That kind of grooming behavior can put you under some serious scrutiny.

Notice that reality is not the issue. The issue is whether or not a child tells someone something that triggers mandatory reporting. Or if the child gets angry at you and wants to get you in trouble.

I would not make an online account for a child under any circumstances. I'd send home a sheet of how the parents can do it. I'd offer to come to their house and do it for them from their computer.

If I were a gamestore owner, I'd forbid it and ban any GM who did. And if Paizo had to provide records and give law enforcement access to their data bases, I can see them taking action as well.

1/5

Blake's Tiger wrote:
As a professional guardian of children, it does not matter how realistic is may or may not be to expect a parent to manage their child's online account.

It absolutely matters from the child's point of view and what experiences the child may have as a result. Your statement couldn't be more misguided. If some of the parents are willing to manage this and some aren't, then it has the possibility of creating a negative experience for that child. Whatever system I go with has to be equitable given that it can affect what happens at the table.

Quote:
However, they are the parent and they should have as much say as they want on their minor children's online presence. No matter your personal feelings on the matter.

No one is denying parents anything. Stop trying to paint this is in some sort of negative light. It's about providing children, or even adults, a way to experience facets of PFS play that may denied to them for various reasons.

Quote:
As a parent, I would be extremely troubled to find an adult of any relationship to my child had made an online account linked to message boards and purchasing functions for my child.

The link is to the PFS member # and that number contains zero personal information on anyone. There is no informational link to the child or to anyone else besides the person who manages the account. There is no "purchasing behavior" tied to any actual purchasing, so no advertising is linked to any of the PFS member #s.

Quote:
Not every parent would care. But you owe the parents the respect to give them the choice to decline the account creation, take responsibility for it themselves, or delegate that authority to you. You don't simply take that authority from a parent.

And who said I wasn't allowing the parents to take it on or have their children opt out? Your accusations are pretty asinine.

2/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Quote:
. . . couldn't be more misguided.

I will leave it at this: you justifications and conclusions are misguided. Hopefully, you don't land yourself in a problem others have warned you away from.

And just this:

Quote:
Your accusations are pretty asinine.

They are statements, not accusations.

1/5

CrystalSeas wrote:
I would not make an online account for a child under any circumstances.

It's unfortunate that we live in a period where people can't make objective evaluations of a situation. Instead, it all gets lumped into the bucket that generates the most outrage and fear.

It sounds like several of you are conflating the problem I am trying to resolve from a PFS perspective, with behavior that has nothing to do with PFS: The idea this sets up some sort of relationship with a child outside of their parents.

While I can certainly relate to being concerned with the latter. Documenting game related choices online doesn't create the latter. Obviously people can assert what ever they want, but it comes across as fear-mongering in this context.

Quote:
I'd send home a sheet of how the parents can do it. I'd offer to come to their house and do it for them from their computer.

I'm not going to anyone's house, but obviously it would be preferable if the parents were an active part of the gaming and managed this without me. Right now, some of the parents are playing as well, but I can't expect all of them to play and practically, there aren't enough open seats.

Quote:
And if Paizo had to provide records and give law enforcement access to their data bases, I can see them taking action as well.

Part of me posting here is to see if PFS has any specific rules about this and how to solve the problem. If there are strict rules against creating/controlling PFS# accounts for someone not in your household, then I would welcome someone identifying them.

...and this is only a problem because PFS switched to the ACP system, as Robert H pointed out above.

Sovereign Court 4/5 * Organized Play Manager

All minor accounts on Paizo.com must be made by parents/guardians of said minors. Doing otherwise violates Paizo TOC. The rules of paizo.com exist to protect younger members of society and we will not support activities that seek to circumnavigate these protections.

There are some workarounds that do not involve breaking the rules:

People without paizo.com accounts can be issued a paper card with a number and will accrue AcP for each game played.

Encourage parents to take an interest in their child's activities. Send home a paper with directions on how to make an account and what benefits the youth gets is the first step.

Alternatively, if parents can't/don't want to navigate the site, they can identify desired purchases to the OP team via the reporting errors email (pfsreportingerrors@paizo.com), then we can manually purchase items on the account and distribute copies back to the parent on behalf of the child.

In the worst-case scenario, the points will accrue until the child can/wants to make an account.

Have/have-nots in every scenario, not just at youth tables. That isn't something the program is equipped to address. The AcP and boons are an additional system, not the game. Previously, youth not attending conventions or special regional events wouldn't have had boons to use.
For the boons on chronicles, they can be printed out and shared at the table with manual tracking.

1/5

First off, thank you for posting on how PFS wants this handled.

Tonya Woldridge wrote:
All minor accounts on Paizo.com must be made by parents/guardians of said minors. Doing otherwise violates Paizo TOC.

So this gets a little confusing. Based on this statement, the account belongs to the parent/guardian, not the minor. It sounds like Paizo/PFS specifically do not want minors as the owners of the account.

I assume this is done because of COPA, Paizo can't have any knowledge that the owner of the account is the minor, otherwise it would need written authorization to collect personal information.

Quote:
People without paizo.com accounts can be issued a paper card with a number and will accrue AcP for each game played.

Are these instructions available for download or on a link?

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Send home a paper with directions on how to make an account and what benefits the youth gets is the first step.

Does PFS have this ready for distribution?

Quote:
Alternatively, if parents can't/don't want to navigate the site, they can identify desired purchases to the OP team via the reporting errors email (pfsreportingerrors@paizo.com), then we can manually purchase items on the account and distribute copies back to the parent on behalf of the child.

Once again, is there a link or download of these instructions available?

Quote:
Have/have-nots in every scenario, not just at youth tables. That isn't something the program is equipped to address.

Well, it might be worth figuring out, as this applies to adults as well. Boons are an asset that PFS has put some non-trivial resources into creating (as you would know). To create an asset and then not provide a robust mechanism for all to leverage it, seems remiss. I know, for a fact, that spouses of people I have played with are not motivated to deal with all the extra bookkeeping and would welcome a system that allowed their GM or someone else to manage the online portion of it. In my experience, there are casual/social gamers who will sit down and play, but if you put throw too much administration at them, it quickly becomes tedious.

Quote:
The AcP and boons are an additional system, not the game.

I can say with certainty that young children can be quite competitive when it comes to rewards. As soon as one child shows up with boons and gets to do something or avoid something because of it, the others will be put out if they don't have access to the same benefits, especially when all of them will be playing the same adventures. Then you'll have parents who think their child is being treated unfairly. I let you guess how parents will react to a reward system that they think is unfair.

Your solution seems to be to tell their parents they have to get online/email you, or, force me to deny boons to all of them. Seems like there should an alternative where these things can be managed without the parents having to devote time and energy to a game system they may not fully embrace or be skeptical of. That's not making it easy for me to introduce children and parents to Pathfinder.

Quote:
For the boons on chronicles, they can be printed out and shared at the table with manual tracking.

And that would work great. But my understanding is that scenario boons are no longer going to be on the scenarios, so there is no paper tracking.

Personally, I think the digital boons have some advantages over paper. But it doesn't sound like PFS recognized the obstacle this imposes on young players. Maybe PFS could take another look at this?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

This, of course, assumes that minors, who are often more adept at using the internet than their parents, aren't smart enough to just lie about their DoB and create their own account anyway. I have no data to support it, but I would guess that there are more of these than minor accounts owned and operated by their parents.

1/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would not want these minors to be creating accounts. They spend far too much time online as it is. I'm trying to introduce PFS as a hobby, something they can do that does not involve screen time. Though admittedly, I doubt the parents want to fork out the money for a hardcover, yet, so they will still need to be online to look up rules. C'est a vie.

1/5

Kevin Willis wrote:
Allowing the parents/guardians to give a third party limited access to a child's account. Just to see and manage characters, not to see personal info.

Just seeing this now. This creates a bit dilemma. For Paizo, there can be no child's account. As you posted:

Quote:
I just put in a birthdate that made me nine years old; I didn't go any further down the account creation path.

The account belongs to the adult, because under COPPA, Paizo can't have any constructive knowledge that the owner is a minor. An adult can put in whatever information they choose, including that belonging to their child. But the account is not the child's account, it belongs to the adult.

As the account belongs to the adult, I would repeat my question: Is it a violation of PFS for one adult to manage the PFS account for someone to which there is no legal relationship?

Rather than get bogged down with sorting out whether this really a child account by any definition of privacy law, it would be easier if Paizo facilitated your suggestion in a way that doesn't require a third party to manage "accounts"

Ideally, a person could spend ACP at the beginning or end of the adventure and that information is part of reporting the chronicle for the GM.. The GM would also mark on the person's paper copy what ACPs were spent, what was purchased., and then if there were an error or a mistake, the paper copy could be used to rectify it. This avoids account access by any third party.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5

Slightly off-topic but ~30-50 year olds tend to be the best with technology on average they grew up as technology was developing and as a result tended to develop the needed problem solving strategies. Younger students can certainly have exceptional individuals, but just like every other subject they are still learning how to use technology, so I would expect many of them to struggle with the Paizo website, since it has issues.

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