When does a player know that Charm was cast on them.

[Zezashetan]

I was wondering if you guys would be willing to help me with a question that happened in my home game on Saturday. I was introducing a new player to the group. The New Player has noticed the other member resting after they just ended an encounter and is stealthing to them with a ranged raised. A Wizard notices and starts a conversation. I start a Diplomatic Encounter between players to put them into turns. Wizard sees a weapon raised and wants to defuse the situation before it gets out of hand and cast Charm.
The new player fails his save.
Does the new player (Target of the spell) know that Charm has been cast? The Spell text seems to indicate that only a Critical Success knows that Charm was cast and a Success would have to succeed at an Identify magic to know that Charm was cast.

This does have Society implications because we all know baddies love their Charms.

[QuidEst]

The player needs to know in order to play their character appropriately, and the character does not know.

One of the perks that Charm got in exchange for the Incapacitation trait is that it's a lot more subtle.

[Matthew Downie]

Quote:

When the spell ends, the target doesn’t necessarily realize it was charmed unless its friendship with you or the actions you convinced it to take clash with its expectations, meaning you could potentially convince the target to continue being your friend via mundane means.

Critical Success The target is unaffected and aware you tried to charm it.

Success The target is unaffected but thinks your spell was something harmless instead of charm, unless it identifies the spell (usually with Identify Magic).

Failure The target’s attitude becomes friendly toward you. If it was friendly, it becomes helpful. It can’t use hostile actions against you.

Critical Failure The target’s attitude becomes helpful toward you, and it can’t use hostile actions against you.

On a failure, the player should be told immediately so they know to act friendly to the caster. Their character still doesn't know.

[Ravingdork]

You're introducing a new player by way of PVP? Yeesh. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

[krobrina]

The player needs to know, or the GM needs to take over a dominated character (Charm isn't full domination) - either works, see what's best for your table.

Players are supposed to keep player and character knowledge separate.

[Ravingdork]

Sorry. I tried to edit my post above, but got pulled away for work and only just now realized that I didn't actually hit the "submit" button before the edit timer ran out. :P

***

You're introducing a new player by way of PVP? Yeesh. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Starting off with mind manipulation can potentially alter their relationship dynamic for the rest of the campaign too (and even the group of players possibly). Lots of people view mind manipulation as a violation of the worst kind, and so aren't terribly comfortable with it. May want to make sure everyone is okay with that sort of thing before moving forward.

In any case QuidEst and Matthew Donnie are correct. The easiest way (and I think best way) to handle a player character getting charmed is to tell the player precisely what happened, and how it effects their character, inuding informing them that their character is unaware of the charm.

Alternatively, you can be more vague, explaining only that they've succumbed to a mind-altering effect and need to act friendly to the wizard.

[The Raven Black]

Note that casting is obvious. So the new friend is obviously a caster who just cast a spell. Nothing to worry about though since they can only have the best intentions, being your new bestest friend and all.

[Zezashetan]

PVP was not the intention. A Diplomatic Encounter was created to encourage Roleplay. Where I failed as a GM is that seeming to put players into an initiative force some players to pull weapons instead of trying to talk.

The worst part was that the casting of a spell force players to believe that they could react to a spell being cast. The New player felt that if a spell is being cast, he would be able to fire his raised and ready weapon.

What should have been a, "What are you doing here?" "Some drakes stole our gear and we are here to recover it. What are you doing here?" "I am here to recover a special item for my clan!" turned into, "I pull my weapon and ready to attack." "Well, I believe that I would know that a spell was cast so I am going to fire my weapon."

[Captain Morgan]

Technically, the player is probably correct. In a situation where the act of casting a spell would be believed to be aggressive (as opposed to merely suspicious) you probably should have rolled deception. Most likely using deception for the wizard and perception for the other character.

Unless they are already in initiative, which is generally the only time you should let people ready actions.

[Ravingdork]

If you don't like where it's headed, it might not be the worst thing to admit that to your players, apologize for the mishandling, and try to get things back on track. No GM is infallible and most players, if they're mature, can respect that.

If you want to keep going with the current mechanics/scenario though, it might be worth noting that someone can't trump initiative just because they say they can or should. Also, whether or not someone can take a reaction prior to initiative is left entirely up to the GM. The default answer is "no" I believe, but I the rules leave it open ended enough for corner cases where reactions make sense (such as a trap that triggers as a reaction before anyone has rolled initiative).

So it sounds like two parties encountered one another, one had their weapon raised, and the other cast charm in the hopes of diffusing the situation, but inadvertently escalated it.

Depending on the maturity level of the players, and making it clear to everyone at the table that the end goal is an alliance, it might be worth roleplaying out as is. I can totally see the characters all being like "Sorry we spooked you and caused a misunderstanding" before getting back on track.

As long as there are no hurt feelings, everyone is aware of the end goal, things get back on track, and everyone is having a good time it doesn't much matter how you get there, I suppose. So try not to worry about it too much.

[krobrina]

You don't need to tell the player at the point of casting. Save it until the effect is actually used for the first time, or it's clear that the player is thinking about a contrary action.

[Glorf Fei-Hung]

So, I'm neither the caster or the target of this little escapade, just a scaley fighter along for the ride. However this exchange has resulted in some discussion between our GM and the party that I think has been a little sloppy with word choice on specific points.

I 100% agree that anyone who does not meet the requirements of "Identifying Spells" CRB pg 305 does not know that Charm was cast. (Unless the target gets a critical success on their save, which invokes the spell specific entry that they know there was an attempt to charm them.) "Critical Success The target is unaffected and aware you tried to charm it."

However what has been presented to the party are statements that they do not know that "the spell" was cast, and statements that they do not know that "a spell" was cast. The former falls under my previous paragraph, since noone was able to identify the spell as it was cast, the only person that knows charm was cast is the wizard that cast it.

The later is where I have issue/concern. As far as I can tell, there is nothing in Charm that indicates there is anyone in sight of the caster that would be unaware that a spell is being cast at all.

To me this seems extremely clear this is not the case, because if you are unaware a spell is cast, you would have no opportunity to identify the spell, which is something that is specifically pointed out that you can do in the successful save line.
"Success The target is unaffected but thinks your spell was something harmless instead of charm, unless it identifies the spell (see Identifying Magic)."
Further, that would be such a huge deviation from the general rules on spell casting that it would require specific entries calling it out. (Kind of like the critical success line that clearly calls out under those circumstances you know someone tried to charm you) Which I don't know of any other spell that lets you automatically identify it on a critical success on the save. Similarly I don't know of any other spell that noone is aware of a spell being cast.

The only direct textual backing offered for not knowing a spell is cast, is the spell description of what happens if you fail your save and are actually charmed. "To the target, your words are honey and your visage seems bathed in a dreamy haze."

That line is being presented as the description of what the target sees actually happening during the casting (which is altering their perceptions before the spell is even completed casting or they've even had a chance to make a save), rather than as flavor/description for how the target that failed the save views what is happening during the spell duration.

To those brave (or bored) enough to read through all that, Thank you. And any support would be appreciated. Alteratively if I'm wrong here, any assistance in helping me understand what I'm missing would also be appreciated.

Edited: I don't think I clearly detailed that the current GM ruling is that only the target is unaware of "a spell" being cast.

[PawnJJ]

Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

I 100% agree that anyone who does not meet the requirements of "Identifying Spells" CRB pg 305 does not know that Charm was cast. (Unless the target gets a critical success on their save, which invokes the spell specific entry that they know there was an attempt to charm them.) "Critical Success The target is unaffected and aware you tried to charm it."

However what has been presented to the party are statements that they do not know that "the spell" was cast, and statements that they do not know that "a spell" was cast. The former falls under my previous paragraph, since noone was able to identify the spell as it was cast, the only person that knows charm was cast is the wizard that cast it.

The later is where I have issue/concern. As far as I can tell, there is nothing in Charm that indicates there is anyone in sight of the caster that would be unaware that a spell is being cast at all.

From page 302:

When you Cast a Spell, your spellcasting creates obvious visual manifestations of the gathering magic, although feats such as Conceal Spell and Melodious Spell can help hide such manifestations or otherwise prevent observers from noticing that you are casting.

I think it's pretty cut and dry. Everyone's character knows that a spell was cast, but only the caster's character knows what was cast in this instance.