Threefold Aspect and Strength?


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

If a player is wearing a +6 belt of strength and then casts three fold aspect selecting the elderly aspect what happens to his strength score? Both the belt and the spell give enhancement bonuses and they don't stack. I really hate when the players get something for nothing but it feels like the RAW is that only the belt's enhancement will function.


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I am not sure I understand. If they went with the young aspect then they would have two enhancment bonuses to strength. But the elderly aspect does not give a strength bonus at all, it gives a -2 penalty. Which obviously stacks with the +6 bonus for a net +4.

_
glass.

Sovereign Court

Why is it obvious? Where does it say that penalties stack if bonuses don't? It is still an enhancement change to the stat.
Are penalties always untyped?


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The penalties from Threefold Aspect are not "enhancement penalties" -- they are untyped penalties and thus stack with anything.

Threefold Aspect is not a very useful spell by the time you gain access to it because you are likely to already have a belt or a headband that gives you bonuses to the stats you want to improve via that spell.


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Only bonuses have types:

Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not "stack")—only the greater bonus granted applies.

Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.

Besides that a bonus and a penalty are not the same thing, so even if the penalty had a type it would still apply.

Sovereign Court

Thanks

Silver Crusade

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David knott 242 wrote:
Threefold Aspect is not a very useful spell by the time you gain access to it because you are likely to already have a belt or a headband that gives you bonuses to the stats you want to improve via that spell.

Threefold Aspect is available at 7th lvl; in my experience +4 headbands are out of reach at that point. If Automatic Bonus Progression is being used, you don't get Mental Prowess +4 until 11th lvl.

It's been a very useful spell for my Speaker for the Past Shaman in Strange Aeons. In addition to boosting Wisdom (crone aspect), the Intelligence boost help with library research. The spell lasts 24 hours, and is only a standard action to switch between aspects, so it's quite flexible. From levels 7-10, it's effectively giving me +1 spell DCs (we're using ABP), along with better Perception and Will saves.


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Here's the actual rule:

Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." (CRB pg. 208)

Penalties can have types (they just almost never do), but stacking rules only apply for bonuses with bonuses and penalties with penalties.

Todd Lower wrote:
It is still an enhancement change to the stat.

No it's not. "As the elderly aspect, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Wisdom and Intelligence, but take a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity." It says enhancement bonus, but not enhancement penalty. Therefore, the penalty is untyped, and thus always applies no matter what else.

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