So, reading rules for a character I start running on Friday...I noticed something that I think I am wrong, but read it a few dozen times now and can't see why I am wrong. So asking the unthinkable, Am I right? Notice if Paizo was still doing 1st edition FAQ I would want them to change this
Level 1 sorcerer
Level 2+ Arcanist
Arcanist takes bloodline development (note the last line that basically says: arcanist levels now stack on sorcerer for bloodline abilities)
Flip over to sorcerer, Various powers are granted as a bloodline, in addition, under bloodlines you get Bonus spells & Bonus Feats
Now, other than the 3rd level bonus spell (as they are level 1 spells) don't matter as she does not have any spell slots to cast them...but the feats, this is interesting to me, would they still get them
My gut says they should not get them. but my reading says they do...
It is for a concept character. I would defiantly not do it just for the feats, for a concept I have, I will be doing it either way. Having said that, when you know your concept is hurting you in a couple ways it makes sense to try to maximize what you can. Plus Bloodline Arcane (which CAN modify the arcanist spells) is pretty nice, even with the loss of a few spells (CL will be covered by a trait, but spells per level is hurt)
Yes, the bonus feats are part of the bloodline class ability.
As Dragonborn3 said. You know, this is the Rules Questions forum, not the "make fun of other people and their ideas" forum? o_0
It's a perfectly reasonable question, and optimizing around the edges of your set character concept is a good thing. Playing out a character idea is fun, but if your character frequently lacks the capabilities of doing something meaningful then it subtracts from enjoying the game.
Arcanist & sorcerer are top-tier classes and delaying higher-level spells by 1 level isn't such a big deal, otherwise nobody would play sorcerers over wizards either.
And taking a single level of (cross-blooded) sorcerer is a frequent thing for casters who want to make use of one of the unique sorcerer arcanas.
So, the rule question has been answered, I'd say, then this concludes it, or, if the OP desires, there's advice to ask for.
Examples:
The Ampoule of False Blood allows you to change your bloodline powers without changing your other bloodline abilities (arcana, spells, feats), though it would occupy your neck slot.
If you only take a single level of sorcerer, make sure to take a good archetype, e.g. Crossblooded to get 2 arcanas or Tattooed for a familiar & Varisian tattoo.
The Robe of Arcane Heritage increases your sorcerer level by +4 in regards to your bloodline powers (you even get them earlier).
If bonus spells aren't important, an archetype that removes/delays them is useful, e.g. the Bloodline Familiars.
If you choose a bloodline with weak bloodline powers, and you look for versatility in which bonus feats to choose, consider a Half-Elf with Paragon Surge: when cast, choose Extra Exploit -> Bloodline Exploit -> select the bloodline bonus feats every time anew! [Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger bloodline) would help extend the spell's duration; Skill Focus: Disguise prolly hurts though]
My gut says they should not get them. but my reading says they do...
Same here. For the reading part: Both CRB and ACG use "ability" as a term for any benefit from a sorcerer's bloodline. The last sentence about the exploit uses the wording "powers and abilities" - which is not perfect no matter whether someone thinks abilities indeed cover everything from a bloodline (then it should have been "power and other abilities", like in CRB) or just powers (then it should been simply "powers").
Now to the gut part: A single exploit shouldn't give you that much, yup. If you consider the additional cost of an arcanist level, and the only delayed arrival of a lot of bloodline benefits, things look more balanced.
So, reading rules for a character I start running on Friday...I noticed something that I think I am wrong, but read it a few dozen times now and can't see why I am wrong. So asking the unthinkable, Am I right? Notice if Paizo was still doing 1st edition FAQ I would want them to change this
Level 1 sorcerer
Level 2+ ArcanistArcanist takes bloodline development (note the last line that basically says: arcanist levels now stack on sorcerer for bloodline abilities)
Flip over to sorcerer, Various powers are granted as a bloodline, in addition, under bloodlines you get Bonus spells & Bonus Feats
Now, other than the 3rd level bonus spell (as they are level 1 spells) don't matter as she does not have any spell slots to cast them...but the feats, this is interesting to me, would they still get them
My gut says they should not get them. but my reading says they do...
So your interpretation would destroy the Blood Arcanist archetype. This is how:
- The Blood Arcanist gives up exploit slots at 1st, 3rd, 9th, and 15th, plus the capstone, replacing those with the Bloodline Arcana and Bloodline Powers from a standard bloodline. You only get those features, NOT the skill, feats, or spells.
- Bloodline Development + 1 level sorcerer dip = only give up your 1st and capstone, and get the Arcana, Powers, and all three feats? AND you don't go into an archetype, which means you can actually go into an archetype if you want? o.o
So you have two characters with the exact same basic chassis (arcanist with bloodline,) but the one with Bloodline Development + sorcerer dip has six more feats compared to literally nothing for the Blood Arcanist.
That... seems unintended.
sorcerer 6: spells/day 6/5/3
blood arcanist 6: spells/day 4/4/2
sorc 1 / arcanist 5: spells/day 7/3
One of these sucks more than the other two. If it gets more feat-equivalents I'm fine with that.
So, reading rules for a character I start running on Friday...I noticed something that I think I am wrong, but read it a few dozen times now and can't see why I am wrong. So asking the unthinkable, Am I right? Notice if Paizo was still doing 1st edition FAQ I would want them to change this
Level 1 sorcerer
Level 2+ ArcanistArcanist takes bloodline development (note the last line that basically says: arcanist levels now stack on sorcerer for bloodline abilities)
Flip over to sorcerer, Various powers are granted as a bloodline, in addition, under bloodlines you get Bonus spells & Bonus Feats
Now, other than the 3rd level bonus spell (as they are level 1 spells) don't matter as she does not have any spell slots to cast them...but the feats, this is interesting to me, would they still get them
My gut says they should not get them. but my reading says they do...
So your interpretation would destroy the Blood Arcanist archetype. This is how:
- The Blood Arcanist gives up exploit slots at 1st, 3rd, 9th, and 15th, plus the capstone, replacing those with the Bloodline Arcana and Bloodline Powers from a standard bloodline. You only get those features, NOT the skill, feats, or spells.
- Bloodline Development + 1 level sorcerer dip = only give up your 1st and capstone, and get the Arcana, Powers, and all three feats? AND you don't go into an archetype, which means you can actually go into an archetype if you want? o.o
So you have two characters with the exact same basic chassis (arcanist with bloodline,) but the one with Bloodline Development + sorcerer dip has six more feats compared to literally nothing for the Blood Arcanist.
That... seems unintended.
If you count being a full caster level behind as "literally nothing else" then sure. Likewise the sorcerer build gives up the capstone, since you can't hit 20 in arcanist.
His interpretation is absolutely correct.
Did you read what I said about thinking I was wrong? or that I would suggest Paizo FAQ the combo away...
However the point Avr makes is good (even with the trait to increase the CL to protect the spells I can cast, the loss of the spells is an issue.
the concept is that his magic at first is a bit of a "Wild Talent" that Arcanist represents him learning to control it...
For what it is worth, the plan is Sage as bloodline...
For what it is worth, the plan is Sage as bloodline...
That is... a really bad choice. None of your bloodline abilities depend on CHA and you are forever tied to 1st-level sorcerer spellcasting. You could safely dump CHA and still wouldn't suffer much in terms of sorcerer abilities. Changing that to INT won't do any good.
Even simply going straight Arcane bloodline is a thousand times better, because the arcana boosts even all your arcanist metamagiced spells' DC by +1. And an Arcane Bond (familiar or item) is much better too than a few times per day usable, cantrip-equivalent SLA.
There are much better Wildblooded bloodlines out there, if you want to go with that archetype, like getting an Animal Companion.
No need to weaken the character even more.
For what it is worth, the plan is Sage as bloodline...
You can't use Sage with Bloodline Development:
The arcanist selects one sorcerer bloodline upon taking this exploit. The arcanist gains that bloodline’s 1st-level bloodline power as though she were a 1st-level sorcerer. The arcanist must select an ordinary bloodline with this ability, not one altered by an archetype.
Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?
No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination. However, the character should not be able to use the crossblooded archetype's ability to select a lower-level bloodline power that was replaced by the wildblooded archetype. For example, a wildblooded brutal (abyssal) sorcerer replaces "strength of the abyss" with "wings of the abyss" at 9th level; the character has "paid" for the wildblooded archetype by giving up "strength of the abyss," and can't use the crossblooded bloodline to select "strength of the abyss" as her 15th-level or 20th-level bloodline power.
For what it is worth, the plan is Sage as bloodline...That is... a really bad choice. None of your bloodline abilities depend on CHA and you are forever tied to 1st-level sorcerer spellcasting. You could safely dump CHA and still wouldn't suffer much in terms of sorcerer abilities. Changing that to INT won't do any good.
Even simply going straight Arcane bloodline is a thousand times better, because the arcana boosts even all your arcanist metamagiced spells' DC by +1. And an Arcane Bond (familiar or item) is much better too than a few times per day usable, cantrip-equivalent SLA.
There are much better Wildblooded bloodlines out there, if you want to go with that archetype, like getting an Animal Companion.
No need to weaken the character even more.
Sorry, was aimed at Sandslice with that comment.
For what it is worth, the plan is Sage as bloodline...That is... a really bad choice. None of your bloodline abilities depend on CHA and you are forever tied to 1st-level sorcerer spellcasting. You could safely dump CHA and still wouldn't suffer much in terms of sorcerer abilities. Changing that to INT won't do any good.
Even simply going straight Arcane bloodline is a thousand times better, because the arcana boosts even all your arcanist metamagiced spells' DC by +1. And an Arcane Bond (familiar or item) is much better too than a few times per day usable, cantrip-equivalent SLA.
There are much better Wildblooded bloodlines out there, if you want to go with that archetype, like getting an Animal Companion.
No need to weaken the character even more.
I will consider the change to arcane. I was planning on taking a familiar at level 4 anyways, I was looking at the swap to normal arcane. The Int bonus was what I wanted, and I feel now that I did really consider what it was benefiting me or not (the magic missile affect is nice but not amazing after level 1)
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For what it is worth, the plan is Sage as bloodline...You can't use Sage with Bloodline Development:
The arcanist selects one sorcerer bloodline upon taking this exploit. The arcanist gains that bloodline’s 1st-level bloodline power as though she were a 1st-level sorcerer. The arcanist must select an ordinary bloodline with this ability, not one altered by an archetype.Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?
No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination. However, the character should not be able to use the crossblooded archetype's ability to select a lower-level bloodline power that was replaced by the wildblooded archetype. For example, a wildblooded brutal (abyssal) sorcerer replaces "strength of the abyss" with "wings of the abyss" at 9th level; the character has "paid" for the wildblooded archetype by giving up "strength of the abyss," and can't use the crossblooded bloodline to select "strength of the abyss" as her 15th-level or 20th-level bloodline power.
The last part of the exploit is what we are talking about here, which basically says, if you already have a bloodline ignore what we said and do this instead, allowing for the sage bloodline.
If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.
I will consider the change to arcane. I was planning on taking a familiar at level 4 anyways, I was looking at the swap to normal arcane. The Int bonus was what I wanted, and I feel now that I did really consider what it was benefiting me or not (the magic missile affect is nice but not amazing after level 1)
You are right in that you can take a wildblooded bloodline with your arcanist exploit.
Also: You can get a special bloodline familiar with many bloodlines, as per the Bloodline Familiar rule: These familiars replace your 1st-level bloodline power [i.e. basically changes it to Arcane Bond] and delay your bloodline spells by 1 level (which has no effect on your build). These familiars also get 1 special ability.
If you take another bloodline than the ones listed, you could ask your GM to get a familiar anyway (as stated in the description); the list of Patron Familiars from the Witch are providing good inspiration, for example the Shapechanging Familiar (Transformation patron) or Plague Familiar (Plague patron) could just as easily be taken for a Shapechanger resp. Pestilence bloodline sorcerer.
Okay, decided to drop sage...considering a draconic/Arcane crossblood...level 1 gets a lot harder, but level 2 on would be better...
Okay, decided to drop sage...considering a draconic/Arcane crossblood...level 1 gets a lot harder, but level 2 on would be better...
1st level on sorcerer shouldn't be too hard. Stick to Acid Splash as a cantrip: no saving throw and no spell resistance, so it's not dependent on your CHA score at all. Buy an Acid Flask (10gp) as a focus component (+1dmg) and add Brimstone as Alchemical material component (for another +1dmg) for free (Eschew Materials makes you ignore the 1gp cost), for a total of 1d3+2 acid damage.
When selecting your bloodlines, make sure to cross-check the bloodline powers. For example, the 9th-level Arcane power (New Arcana) is worthless to you, as it depends on sorcerer levels (not bloodline power); similarly, the 9th-level Draconic bloodline power depends on sorcerer level and Charisma, which means both of these powers suck on your build. You could replace it with the 1st- or 3rd-level bloodline power you didn't choose at first, or trade it in for a bloodline mutation, but whether any of these are worth it depends on what you are trying to do with your character.
The Arcane bloodline's 3rd-level power is pointless for your build as well, and whether a tiny bit of energy resistance and natural armor from the Draconic line is much better remains doubtful. So make sure to choose your 2nd bloodline carefully, to get a strong power (independent of sorcerer levels & Charisma) whenever the 1st bloodline offers only a weak power.
For example, if you go with Arcane as 1st bloodline and want to go for fire damage primarily, take the Solar bloodline instead of the Draconic bloodline: It has the same bloodline arcana as the Draconic (Fire) bloodline, but offers twice as much resistance than Draconic at 3rd level + a unique healing bonus to every healing effect that includes you (i.e. if your party cleric channels positive energy, everyone gets +1hitpoint per die rolled!) and eventually fire immunity; the 9th-level power is a strong condition remover as well. Searing Light as a 1st-level spell is just icing on the cake.
Or, another option, take Phoenix bloodline if your party lacks a primary divine caster (capable of healing): Then replace the 3rd-level power with the bloodline mutation Blood Intensity but keep the Phoenix Wings for unlimited flight (a whole 6 levels earlier than Draconic bloodline) -- with a Robe of Arcane Heritage unlimited flight at level 5!
1st level on sorcerer shouldn't be too hard. Stick to Acid Splash as a cantrip: no saving throw and no spell resistance, so it's not dependent on your CHA score at all. Buy an Acid Flask (10gp) as a focus component (+1dmg) and add Brimstone as Alchemical material component (for another +1dmg) for free (Eschew Materials makes you ignore the 1gp cost), for a total of 1d3+2 acid damage.
That's awesome. Did not know. :)
Okay, decided to drop sage...considering a draconic/Arcane crossblood...level 1 gets a lot harder, but level 2 on would be better...1st level on sorcerer shouldn't be too hard. Stick to Acid Splash as a cantrip: no saving throw and no spell resistance, so it's not dependent on your CHA score at all. Buy an Acid Flask (10gp) as a focus component (+1dmg) and add Brimstone as Alchemical material component (for another +1dmg) for free (Eschew Materials makes you ignore the 1gp cost), for a total of 1d3+2 acid damage.
When selecting your bloodlines, make sure to cross-check the bloodline powers. For example, the 9th-level Arcane power (New Arcana) is worthless to you, as it depends on sorcerer levels (not bloodline power); similarly, the 9th-level Draconic bloodline power depends on sorcerer level and Charisma, which means both of these powers suck on your build. You could replace it with the 1st- or 3rd-level bloodline power you didn't choose at first, or trade it in for a bloodline mutation, but whether any of these are worth it depends on what you are trying to do with your character.
The Arcane bloodline's 3rd-level power is pointless for your build as well, and whether a tiny bit of energy resistance and natural armor from the Draconic line is much better remains doubtful. So make sure to choose your 2nd bloodline carefully, to get a strong power (independent of sorcerer levels & Charisma) whenever the 1st bloodline offers only a weak power.
For example, if you go with Arcane as 1st bloodline and want to go for fire damage primarily, take the Solar bloodline instead of the Draconic bloodline: It has the same bloodline arcana as the Draconic (Fire) bloodline, but offers twice as much resistance than Draconic at 3rd level + a unique healing bonus to every healing effect that includes you (i.e. if your party cleric channels positive energy, everyone gets +1hitpoint per die rolled!) and eventually fire...
Thank you for this, I appreciate it greatly and will look over all the bloodlines closely.
Long term planning & concept means that I will be basically going sling and staff for level 1 for combat (other than shield spell)
Some serious thinking, rereading a few things, talking to the GM, etc...Decide to avoid cross-Blooded (he ruled that the penalty on spells known would jump to arcanist as well as it is part of the bloodline...)
I do want to thank everyone. I have one more slight rules question about this character I will post here instead of a new thread
Magical Knack and Multidiciplined (alternate half elf trait) stack, correct? Going to go Multidiciplined arcanist and sorcerer, magical knack sorcerer (maybe)
It works. Still limited by your character level of course.
It works. Still limited by your character level of course.
Of course. But for a trait to get the sorcerer CL to 4 seems worth it. Admittingly does not add to the number of spells, spells known, etc... but still useful IMO
Okay, decided to drop sage...considering a draconic/Arcane crossblood...level 1 gets a lot harder, but level 2 on would be better...
The Sage bloodline does not work because it is a bloodline altered by an archetype.
Draconic/Arcane crossblooded fails for exactly the same reason.
The Sage bloodline does not work because it is a bloodline altered by an archetype.
Draconic/Arcane crossblooded fails for exactly the same reason.
That's wrong. The issue was addressed earlier in the thread: The arcanist's bloodline exploit works with ANY bloodline.
Some serious thinking, rereading a few things, talking to the GM, etc...Decide to avoid cross-Blooded (he ruled that the penalty on spells known would jump to arcanist as well as it is part of the bloodline...)
Arcanists do not have any Spells Known, so there's no penalty that could possibly affect the arcanist. The -2 penalty on Will saves is a huge drawback already, and with a low Wisdom you're likely to have the same low Will save as a fighter for the first 10 levels.
Magical Knack and Multidiciplined (alternate half elf trait) stack, correct? Going to go Multidiciplined arcanist and sorcerer, magical knack sorcerer (maybe)
Half-elves are my fave race, due to their unsurpassed versatility [even without Paragon Surge]! But to get the most out of it, you'd need knowledge on what you want to achieve.
In general, yes, Multidisciplined and Magical Knack stacks. But is it worth raising your caster level like that for your sorcerer spells? You will have 4 1st-level spell slots per day (maybe 5 with 20+ Charisma), and the DC for these spells is bad: 11 + CHA modifier. Best use those spells for non-offensive basics like Feather Fall, Liberating Command, Obscuring Mist, Blood Money, Shield, True Strike, Enlarge/Reduce Person, .... These spells don't gain much from a slightly raised caster level, as they don't last more than 1 fight anyway.
My recommendation is to focus on three areas: 1) improve your strengths, 2) build for versatility, 3) enhance your defenses. Do not pour your precious resources into your weaknesses. Your sorcerer spells are a weakness and that's just a reality you have to accept, just like you won't ever be able to swing a bigsword or find traps.
1) You're an arcanist, and your arcanist spells are your strength. Raise their DCs, magnify their effects, increase their damage, widen their usability, ...
2) You can prepare new spells every day like a wizard, but cast them spontaneously like a sorcerer, that's already great versatility. If there's a party role you have to play [blaster, controller, ...], then increase the versatility within that role; if not, then increase general versatility with your arcanist spells.
3) Your Fort and Ref saves are weak, your Will save probably only mediocre, your AC suffers from no armor/shield and probably only a +2 from DEX. Lack of vision would shut down your spellcasting, silence/deafness and other conditions seriously impair it. These are frequent threats that could nullify your entire strong points, so defend/mitigate there.
That's why I don't recommend caring about your sorcerer spells much, and your arcanist caster level is not much of an issue either. Caster level is usually only an issue when dealing with damage dice on energy damage spells. If that is your role [i.e. blaster] then it makes sense to raise CL early on with feats/traits. Raising damage & DC is usually more important though, because a successful save reduces durations usually to 0 or halves the entire damage of a Fireball.
For harmless spells, get False Focus, then buy Cooperation Crystals as a focus (+1CL, 300gp); for other spells there's usually a cheap alchemical ingredient to raise CL by +1 -- the False Focus feat makes all these bonuses pretty much permanent. CL/round durations only last 1 fight, and pretty much everything beyond CL 6 is wasted; CL/minute don't benefit much from a +1 CL bonus; CL/hour durations are usually worth Extending and can be cast in advance with various other bonuses to CL.
If your GM doesn't want you to go Crossblooded, take a look at the Razmiran Priest (for False Focus) archetype, or the Mongrel Mage for the absolute versatility godness (select your bloodline each day); the latter is the best choice if you intend to do crafting for your party: together with Paragon Surge, you can craft every item there is (if you have the gold).
A Figment Familiar can improve your versatility even more, but it can't be an Improved Familiar.
The exploit can advance any bloodline(s). The problem is that a sorcerer can't have both cross-blooded and an altered bloodline, like wildblooded. So, cross-blooded sage/draconic isn't possible for anyone.
But if the bloodlines are pure, like arcane/draconic, then the exploit should advance it just fine.
The Sage bloodline does not work because it is a bloodline altered by an archetype.
Draconic/Arcane crossblooded fails for exactly the same reason.
That's wrong. The issue was addressed earlier in the thread: The arcanist's bloodline exploit works with ANY bloodline.
Some serious thinking, rereading a few things, talking to the GM, etc...Decide to avoid cross-Blooded (he ruled that the penalty on spells known would jump to arcanist as well as it is part of the bloodline...)Arcanists do not have any Spells Known, so there's no penalty that could possibly affect the arcanist. The -2 penalty on Will saves is a huge drawback already, and with a low Wisdom you're likely to have the same low Will save as a fighter for the first 10 levels.
GM made call, done issue with me, basically that Spells prepared is the same as spells known.
Magical Knack and Multidiciplined (alternate half elf trait) stack, correct? Going to go Multidiciplined arcanist and sorcerer, magical knack sorcerer (maybe)Half-elves are my fave race, due to their unsurpassed versatility [even without Paragon Surge]! But to get the most out of it, you'd need knowledge on what you want to achieve.
In general, yes, Multidisciplined and Magical Knack stacks. But is it worth raising your caster level like that for your sorcerer spells? You will have 4 1st-level spell slots per day (maybe 5 with 20+ Charisma), and the DC for these spells is bad: 11 + CHA modifier. Best use those spells for non-offensive basics like Feather Fall, Liberating Command, Obscuring Mist, Blood Money, Shield, True Strike, Enlarge/Reduce Person, .... These spells don't gain much from a slightly raised caster level, as they don't last more than 1 fight anyway.
Defiantly think multidiscipline is worth it. Giving up one level of preferred class for a CL in both classes seems a no brainer to me. Magical Knack on the other hand, is questionable. I am mostly
thinking duration issues with it. Having said that, have not made final decision on itI agree on the sorcerer spells being more like your list. I do have Magic Missile on my list right now to get me through level 1, but maybe true strike instead...
My recommendation is to focus on three areas: 1) improve your strengths, 2) build for versatility, 3) enhance your defenses. Do not pour your precious resources into your weaknesses. Your sorcerer spells are a weakness and that's just a reality you have to accept, just like you won't ever...
I accept it is a weakness, I try to minimize those :)
I'm glad people got this worked out for the most part without crying to the developers to FAQ a combination away...
People need to get over themselves. Just because YOU don't agree with something, doesn't mean it should be removed for everyone else. Not everyone plays by your weak/lame playstyles, and there might be tables where such a build fits right in. Who are YOU to take away the fun others might have?
FAQ the combination away... don't be a d!ck, going around ruining things for others.
Defiantly think multidiscipline is worth it. Giving up one level of preferred class for a CL in both classes seems a no brainer to me.
I'm not saying it's bad, but depending on your party role it might not be much of a boost either. Two other options are to trade Multitalented away to get Darkvision 60ft or to trade Multitalented & Adaptability away for the Drow spell-like abilities.
As a primary caster you're not getting too much out of those racial SLAs, but depending on party role it might be useful: with the Recharge Innate Magic spell you can use your 1st-level sorcerer spell slots to recharge 1 use of all your 0th- and 1st-level SLAs, which can be quite a good trade for a (Half-)Drow with the Seducer racial trait & the first Nobility feat [Charm Person, Faerie Fire, Feather Fall]; Charm Person isn't strong against CR-equivalent enemies but as a SLA it can be used in social encounters without V & S components.Unrelated, if you go for Illusion, Conjuration, or Transmutation spells as arcanist, make sure to trade Keen Senses for the respective Spell Focus. If Enchantment, definitely trade your Elven Immunities for the Seducer trait, or, instead, if you're afraid of poisons/diseases, take Thinblood Resistance; the latter also opens up the (rather rare) option of getting the Toxic Spell metamagic on a primary caster, which works nicely with the False Focus feat (if you took it): Just add Oil of Taggit (90gp, Fort DC 15) or Bloodwine (100gp, Fort DC 25) to a spell like Dust of Twilight (or the Flare cantrip if your spell DC can overcome their Fort save).
Okay, decided to drop sage...considering a draconic/Arcane crossblood...level 1 gets a lot harder, but level 2 on would be better...The Sage bloodline does not work because it is a bloodline altered by an archetype.
Draconic/Arcane crossblooded fails for exactly the same reason.
It wouldn't be allowed normally, but they're using it in a way that bypasses the restriction. By taking sorcerer first, they're using the exploit's second option.
They're also interpreting "abilities of the bloodline" to include feats, which only has the small side effect of making the Blood Arcanist archetype completely non-viable, giving up three exploits and four feats (I had forgotten eschew materials) for... not taking the multiclass delay to arcanist casting.
I believe the point is that wild blooded isn't compatible with crossblooded.
When I brought that up, my point had been that Bloodline Development can't be taken with wildblooded, because wildblooded counts as an archetyped bloodline.
The counterpoint is that the interaction between Development and an actual bloodline (eg, the 1-level sorcerer dip) gets to completely ignore that limitation... somehow. (This part of the question was FAQ requested years ago, but doesn't seem to have been answered.)
Let's see what else we can find.
A similar discussion to this one which considers both the Wizard and Sorcerer versions of the question. Unfortunately, it's inconclusive about feats.
This one does raise the question of feats.
As does this one = and both of these lean toward not getting the feats.
----
Specifically for a certain poster:
No one's disputing that the combo exists. The question raised in this thread is whether the combo is somehow more powerful than people ever realized - not only invalidating an archetype, but quite possibly invalidating the Sorcerer class beyond the 1-level dip.
I believe the point is that wild blooded isn't compatible with crossblooded.When I brought that up, my point had been that Bloodline Development can't be taken with wildblooded, because wildblooded counts as an archetyped bloodline.
The counterpoint is that the interaction between Development and an actual bloodline (eg, the 1-level sorcerer dip) gets to completely ignore that limitation... somehow. (This part of the question was FAQ requested years ago, but doesn't seem to have been answered.)
Let's see what else we can find.
A similar discussion to this one which considers both the Wizard and Sorcerer versions of the question. Unfortunately, it's inconclusive about feats.
This one does raise the question of feats.
As does this one = and both of these lean toward not getting the feats.
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Specifically for a certain poster:
No one's disputing that the combo exists. The question raised in this thread is whether the combo is somehow more powerful than people ever realized - not only invalidating an archetype, but quite possibly invalidating the Sorcerer class beyond the 1-level dip.
I can defiantly see why you feel it invalidates the archtype (agreed or disagreed), but invalidating sorcerer is ludicrous. Being the best for spells per day ALONE prevents it being invalidated. Sorcerer would still be a good class without any of the bloodline abilities.
Did it again, I hate the quote feature...don't want to edit, was aimed at Sandslice
I can defiantly see why you feel it invalidates the archtype (agreed or disagreed)
I "feel" that the archetype is invalidated in the same way that I "feel" that n+7 > n - because it is demonstrably true. Comparing them at L20::
- Spells: (Sor) 4 cantrips; 2 (by some interpretations 3) L1 known; 4 castings. (Arc) 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/2 prepared; #/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3 castings.
- Exploits: One required for build; 9 free.
- Bonus feats: Eschew materials, and (by some interpretations) 3 bloodline feats.
- Sorcerer bloodline: Full 20-level.
- BAB: 9
- Saves: 6/6/13
1b. Dippy with crossblood changes as such:
- Spells: (Sor) 3 cantrips; 1 (2) L1 known.
- Bloodline: Both arcana, plus "full 20-level" as described for cross-blooded.
- Saves: 6/6/11
2. Blood arcanist:
- Spells: 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 prepared; #/4-all castings.
- Exploits: 4 required for build: 6 free. Note that the first two are among the required.
- Bonus feats: Explicitly none (barring cases like Impossible L3 where a feat is gained through a power.)
- Sorcerer bloodline: Full 20-level.
- BAB: 10
- Saves: 6/6/12
- Special note: Locked out of all other archetypes except Unlettered (an archetype that puts you on the Witch spell list.)
So for the final cost of 1 BAB and 1 9th level spell prep/cast per day, we apparently get four feats and don't lose three exploits, plus some extra cantrips and 1st level spells.
You MIGHT argue that one 9th level spell is worth 7 feats, I guess?
As for the sorcerer case, the sorcerer is already a bit behind a pure arcanist (as the arcanist's core mechanic is the ability to change her spells known every day, including an exploit for doing so at will.) So giving the sorcerer's distinction to an arcanist, and his bonus feats... it's not "ludicrous" to call that invalidating. Admittedly a bit exaggerated.
And absolutely none of this deserves to be banned, disallowed, or changed.
If you don't want to play it, don't.
If you want to play a pure Sorcerer, or Pure Arcanist, or Pure Blood Arcanist... nobody is stopping you. Isn't that nice? To NOT be stopped from playing what you want...
Now, for everyone that wants to take a dip in Sorcerer, then pursue Arcanist... do it. Nobody should stop you.
As for the Bloodline Feats, meh. It's a 9th level caster build... a few more feats aren't going to make or break anything, honestly. It's a nonissue.
And absolutely none of this deserves to be banned, disallowed, or changed.
If you don't want to play it, don't.
If you want to play a pure Sorcerer, or Pure Arcanist, or Pure Blood Arcanist... nobody is stopping you. Isn't that nice? To NOT be stopped from playing what you want...
It's also nice to know that you're playing a game with rules. After all, someone might want to play an AD&D 1E character named Xain, who is a chaotic neutral elf fighter/monk with the entire AD&D 2E Psionics Handbook as wild talents, and the T-1000 as personal body armour with a fly speed of Mach 6 (perfect). Flagrantly illegal, by the way (1E monks could only be humans of lawful alignment,) but the DM allowed all of that.
And Xain was how I was introduced to the hobby. So yeah, I might have ended up with a slightly different perspective on the role of rules and whether to allow certain interpretations or not.
And the rules fully allow you to dip one level of Sorcerer before going into Arcanist. The rules then fully allow you to functionally continue your Sorcerer levels with an Arcanist Exploit.
All of this is perfectly legal in this game of rules... or it is now, until SOMEBODY cries to the developers to change the rules because THEY don't agree with the rules as they are today.
I don't agree/understand/like this, so it must be banned for everyone. Get over yourself. Just because one person doesn't like something, doesn't mean it's not perfectly playable for literally everyone else.
Level 20 is a crazy point to compare to claim that one character build makes another obsolete. Level 6 (E6) or level 10-12 (endgame in most games) or some lower point where the character will spend a significant amount of time being played is the rational place to compare them.
Lol @ bad opinions being considered facts now. Funny how you totally ignore the fact that straight arcanist is significantly better at 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, and 18. Of course that doesn't it your "its broken" narrative.
Unless the dipper uses the Extra Exploit feat for BLD. Then you can decide if and when you want to go into the build, by taking the sorc level and exploit together.
You also ignore the fact that this is all about getting, at most, 3 feats by level 18, all from a rather small list. And the build costs a feat equivalent besides.
The archetype costs four of them.
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So your argument is "this combo is OP before you actually take it and only sucks after you take it"?
That's nice, I'm not discussing the archetype.
No. In this case, I brought up Extra Exploit against your claim that the "straight arcanist" has an advantage at all levels that upgrade spell level. Extra Exploit allows the dipper to choose when to dip (for example, taking BLD at the same time as the sorcerer level) and thus have control over when to go into "disadvantage."
And no, at no point have I ignored what is being gained. I'm framing it in comparison to the blood arcanist archetype. Not to the base arcanist (who doesn't even have a bloodline,) but to a different arcanist that does have a bloodline.
Since, if I'm not mistaken, the underlying question is whether the dip combo gets a sorcerer's bonus feats on top of relatively cheap access to the full bloodline. As the question isn't clearly answered (and answers I've been able to find lean toward no,) I've been arguing for why I don't support a yes answer.
That means exploring cost-gain comparisons to other means by which an arcanist might gain a bloodline.
But perhaps I need to expand on that further, as there are other options.
1. Eldritch Heritage:
- Cost: 2-5 feats. Stat requirement (Cha 17 at most.) Minimal levels 3, 11, 17.
- BL powers: 1, 3, 9, 15. (Each at the cost of one feat.)
- Other: None. Just the powers.
- Wildblood: Yes, if Exotic Heritage is the requisite feat. No, if Skill Focus is.
2. VMC Sorcerer:
- Cost: 4* feats. (By normal VMC rules, these are L3, 7, 11, 15, 19. The cost is only 4 because the L11 general feat is replaced by a restricted bonus feat.)
- BL powers: 1, 3, 9, 15.
- Other: None. L11 feat must be from the bloodline list or eschew materials.
- Wildblood: Unknown, implicitly no.
3. Blood Arcanist archetype:
- Cost: 4 exploits, capstone. (At 1, 3, 9, 15.) Can't take other archetypes except Unlettered. Can't take Bloodline Development exploit.
- BL powers: All, including arcana.
- Other: Explicitly none.
- Wildblood: Implicitly no.
4. Sorcerer dip to Bloodline Development:
- Cost: 1 exploit (or feat), 1 casting level, capstone. (The level at which the cost is incurred is selectable.)
- BL powers: All, including arcana.
- Other: Eschew Materials and L1 casting from sorcerer dip.
- Wildblood: Yes, if the sorcerer level is confirmed before Bloodline Development is taken. This counts for any archetyped sorcerer unless it replaces Bloodline.
I didn't include Dragon Disciple PrC, as it's unclear whether arcanist casting counts for the casting requirement to enter. If we were to allow it, the cost and gain would depend on how many levels were taken.
- Cost: 1-3 casting levels; 0-5 greater exploits, plus 1 exploit or feat; capstone; 5 skill ranks; 1 language.
- BL powers: All, including arcana.
- Other: 3 feats granted by PrC; natural armour; blindsense; bite; form of dragon SLA; +4 Str; +2 Con; +2 Int; better Fort saves; better hp.
- Wildblood: Yes, but only Linnorm, as the PrC requires Draconic.
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Oddly, the spell specialist arcanist does qualify for dragon disciple while the bloodline archetype does not.
Even more oddly, the dragon disciple gives you a bloodline if you didn’t already have one, which could be advanced by the exploit, no sorcerer required.