Sorcerer dip on an Arcanist?

[swoosh]

On the one hand, losing CL and spell advancement is always super duper icky and awful and no one likes that noise.

On the other hand, Bloodline Development says that if you have sorcerer levels the two stack for determining the powers and abilities granted by it.

So you take a one level dip and gain... all of the sorcerer's class features.

Thoughts?

[Rogar Stonebow]

I do not see where levels of hybrid classes act as parent classes for advancing parent class abilities.

[Oridian]

Quote:

If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.

So Yes. Bloodline development very clearly says that the two classes then stack for determining access and powers of the bloodline.

[Rogar Stonebow]

Ah I missed that part.

[Senko]

You aren't allowed to take levels in the parent classes for hybrids so if you have arcanist you can't take levels of wizard or sorcerer.

[Jeraa]

Senko wrote:

You aren't allowed to take levels in the parent classes for hybrids so if you have arcanist you can't take levels of wizard or sorcerer.

Incorrect. The rules even specifically talk about multiclassing into one of the parent classes.

Quote:

Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline). The new classes presented here are all hybrids of two existing core or base classes.

[Rogar Stonebow]

Jeraa is correct

[Mikael Sebag]

I've been struggling with this quandary myself as well. Personally, I'm inclined to go for the dip. Just think about all the extra cantrips you'll be getting and won't need to prep as an arcanist...! That being said, being two full levels behind wizards, clerics, druids, et al. in terms of spell level access certainly smarts.

Ultimately, it's a decision that's best guided by character concept. If the sorcerer bloodline class features feel like they'll do a lot to help realize your vision, then you can afford to take the dip. If you can pull off your concept with the Eldritch Heritage chain or even just taking bloodline development and calling it a day, it's better to stay pure arcanist and advanced your casting.

[Senko]

Mikael Sebag wrote:

I've been struggling with this quandary myself as well. Personally, I'm inclined to go for the dip. Just think about all the extra cantrips you'll be getting and won't need to prep as an arcanist...! That being said, being two full levels behind wizards, clerics, druids, et al. in terms of spell level access certainly smarts.

Ultimately, it's a decision that's best guided by character concept. If the sorcerer bloodline class features feel like they'll do a lot to help realize your vision, then you can afford to take the dip. If you can pull off your concept with the Eldritch Heritage chain or even just taking bloodline development and calling it a day, it's better to stay pure arcanist and advanced your casting.

Oh I thought they were locked out hmmm.

[thegreenteagamer]

Senko wrote:

Oh I thought they were locked out hmmm.

They were during the playtest, but it changed with the official release.

[Haiku]

Bloodline Development:

The arcanist selects one sorcerer bloodline upon taking this exploit. The arcanist gains that bloodline’s 1st-level bloodline power as though she were a 1st-level sorcerer...If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.

I'm curious myself as to the full benefit of this. Does "powers and abilities" include everything as OP is thinking - feats, bloodline spells, etc? RAW it indicates the whole kit and caboodle, but I'm inclined to believe RAI would be bloodline powers progression only.

[Redneckdevil]

I dont believe its feats and spells, its just the powers and abilities count the arcanist level as a sorcerer level as well. Such as a bloodline ability that lasts x mins or can be done x times a day or does +x dmg per sorcerer level, if u have 2 levels of sorcerer and 1 level arcanist, thos abilities would count arcanist as well into the factor. The feate and extra spells are based on unlocking at sorcerer level alone. Make sense?

[kestral287]

Definitely not feats. Feats are gained at determined sorcerer levels only and are treated separately for the Dragon Disciple, and excluded from Arcane Heritage.

Spells... I'm not sure about. I think I'd say no but you could certainly make a case for it.

Powers definitely, and you have the arcana from your one level of Sorcerer.

[Zwordsman]

A note. It doesn't have to be just sorcerer. It just has to be a class that has bloodlines no? So you could in theory take dragon disciple. If your group uses the "spontaneous casting" SLA thing or if your GM counts the arcanists way of semi spontaneous casting.

you only get bloodline powers if I remember correctly. so for say draconic you get the claws, natural armour/resistance, breath weapon, wings, and at lv 20 the lovely cap stone.

I myself am toying with the idea of sorcerer with the crossblooded for arcanas, then arcanist (either elemental or blade adept) into dragon disciiple..

Elemental arcanist is good for a blaster type. the blade adept can scale your blade with caster level which would help with your absolute crap BAB.

I'm making the main chracter from Breath of fire in this way actually.

[kestral287]

The advantage of going Sorc over DD is primarily in the arcanas-- and a good arcana is a pretty big deal. That, and DD 1 kind of sucks. Though for a dip, it's not much (or any) worse than Sorc I suppose; you don't get a trio of level 1 spells and a bunch of free cantrips, but you do get +1 natural armor and almost twice the HP. So it depends on if you value better defenses over extra utility and the arcana. Plus, of course, Sorc can pick bloodlines that aren't Draconic.

Over on the Arcanist Optimization thread I theorycrafted up a Sorcerer 1 (Crossblooded, pick two of Dragon, Primal, Orc), Wizard 1 (Admixture), Elementalist Arcanist X, with the Arcanist grabbing the Bloodline Development and School Understanding exploits. You're two levels behind in spells and have to drop a trait on Magical Knack, but you get a /lot/ of bonus damage (+2 per die and +1/2 Arcanist+Wizard level). You can switch elements on the fly for if things get wonky, though that cuts down on your extra damage. Probably not something I'd run at level 1, but in a game starting at 6 or 7 it could be funny. You even pick up solid defenses against elemental attacks too, if you take the Draconic defenses and pair them with the Admixture School's ability to switch the type of incoming elemental damage.

[Zwordsman]

Oh imeant if one wanted to build a Dragon Disciple arcanist is a pretty decent alternative to sorcerer.. It can make a pretty coolDragon Disicple actually.

for just dipping for full bloodline, sorcerer or bloodrager is likely the best, for arcanas or for some stats. Unless you think you might want more than one in something else. In which case DD is better since if you go further you can add to caster level to an extent.

[kestral287]

Ah, yes. Reasonable.

Though I can't see any reason to dip Bloodrager; Arcanist doesn't really get anything out of a rage unless you want to be weird and run the archetype with a Black Blade... but then why are you not running an Eldritch Scion Magus.

[Zwordsman]

kestral287 wrote:

Ah, yes. Reasonable.

Though I can't see any reason to dip Bloodrager; Arcanist doesn't really get anything out of a rage unless you want to be weird and run the archetype with a Black Blade... but then why are you not running an Eldritch Scion Magus.

Yeah bloodrager is really just for stats not hte rage. it's a choice I'd rarely if ever choose... probably only if I were trying to make an eldritch knight....

Black blade is fun for someone who wants to be majorly a caster, but still wants a fun blade, or plans to be eldritch knight etc. But want 8 or 9th level casting still.

or for a not-remotely effective but hilariously amusing weird arcanist idea

[kestral287]

I can see Black Blade! I just can't see Black Blade dipping Bloodrager and taking Blood Development, because you're right-- they'd want to go into EK pretty early, which means the bloodline is going to lag behind. Or they're in a gestalt game, where it becomes awesome.

If you wanted the stats, there are Sorc bloodlines that offer extra Str or Con all the time. Pit-Touched is +2 Con at level 9, and another +2 at 13 and 17.

[Zwordsman]

Well in my specific thought, the bloodline is to keep with Breath of fire characterization. Either just straight to DD for a more CQC Ryu or Sorc(crossblooded)into EK for a magic styled Ryu.
Or possibly crossblooded and DD for full on style for Ryuu, and cherry pick ccertain aspects from both bloodlines.

Blood rager is a choice just not one that comes up for anything but specific builds I think.

[Ravingdork]

I've used this to great effect with my character, Sandalphon.

You do not get the bloodline arcana, feats, or spells. Only the other bloodline abilities listed under the BLOODLINE POWERS header for each bloodline.