They did not change in the Remaster.
...Frostbite changed to a save...Ignition was made more variable...cantrips were improved...
Says they weren't changed, then goes on to list cantrips that were changed or improved. Thanks for proving that point.
As for cantrips being "better," they are only really better for one class (the other just piggybacks for one specific cantrip), which is the class that specifically is built for it. They are otherwise, by your own admissions, phased out after 5th level.
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They did not change in the Remaster.
...Frostbite changed to a save...Ignition was made more variable...cantrips were improved...
Says they weren't changed, then goes on to list cantrips that were changed or improved. Thanks for proving that point.
As for cantrips being "better," they are only really better for one class (the other just piggybacks for one specific cantrip), which is the class that specifically is built for it. They are otherwise, by your own admissions, phased out after 5th level.
Every single damaging cantrip changed in the remaster, and they weren't "upgraded" so much as changed around at best.*
And this doesn't address the fact that the remaster didn't change:
- Any of the Conscious Mind cantrips, many of which are on the same power level as cantrips that had preceded them**
- It didn't change Mage Hand, Guideance, Detect Magic, Message, Phase Bolt or Warp Step.
And again, your theory is that Paizo:
- Willfully underpowered cantrips until the release of Dark Archive (which is 3 full years of development) because of the Psychic.
- Only to then "fix" cantrips with the release of the Remaster, when Paizo had no intention of doing the Remaster in the first place, the books came out 2 years after Dark Archive, and the Remaster itself had a few changes (like Refocusing) that make the Psychic less appealing.
So as I said before, utterly deranged.
* Changing from hitting AC to forcing a Save is a +10% chance to succeed in favor of the defender if we retain the same numbers, so this is a nerf unless the Save is 2 or more points lower than AC-10. And you don't need to look far to see places where this isn't the case, or worse, the Save modifier is higher. Overall it's a wash, same with the damage.
** I mean when was the last time anyone said Telekinetic Rend was overpowered? When has anyone sung the praises of Entropic Wheel? Or Hologram Cage? Or Tesseract Tunnel? People do talk about Phase Bolt and Warp Step but those are available to everyone so your theory is even worse.
They did not change in the Remaster.
...Frostbite changed to a save...Ignition was made more variable...cantrips were improved...
Says they weren't changed, then goes on to list cantrips that were changed or improved. Thanks for proving that point.
As for cantrips being "better," they are only really better for one class (the other just piggybacks for one specific cantrip), which is the class that specifically is built for it. They are otherwise, by your own admissions, phased out after 5th level.
Every single damaging cantrip changed in the remaster, and they weren't "upgraded" so much as changed around at best.*
And this doesn't address the fact that the remaster didn't change:
- Any of the Conscious Mind cantrips, many of which are on the same power level as cantrips that had preceded them**
- It didn't change Mage Hand, Guideance, Detect Magic, Message, Phase Bolt or Warp Step.And again, your theory is that Paizo:
- Willfully underpowered cantrips until the release of Dark Archive (which is 3 full years of development) because of the Psychic.
- Only to then "fix" cantrips with the release of the Remaster, when Paizo had no intention of doing the Remaster in the first place, the books came out 2 years after Dark Archive, and the Remaster itself had a few changes (like Refocusing) that make the Psychic less appealing.So as I said before, utterly deranged.
* Changing from hitting AC to forcing a Save is a +10% chance to succeed in favor of the defender if we retain the same numbers, so this is a nerf unless the Save is 2 or more points lower than AC-10. And you don't need to look far to see places where this isn't the case, or worse, the Save modifier is higher. Overall it's a wash, same with the damage.
** I mean when was the last time anyone said Telekinetic Rend was overpowered? When has anyone sung the praises of Entropic Wheel? Or Hologram Cage? Or Tesseract Tunnel? People...
You are disagreeing with my point that cantrips were changed, then list off the very things that make them changed. Just because cantrips aren't used past 5th level doesn't mean they aren't changed for those 4 levels of play. Show me a Magus being able to Spellstrike with Frostbite Premaster, because it didn't happen without a feat.
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You are disagreeing with my point that cantrips were changed, then list off the very things that make them changed. Just because cantrips aren't used past 5th level doesn't mean they aren't changed for those 4 levels of play. Show me a Magus being able to Spellstrike with Frostbite Premaster, because it didn't happen without a feat.
No, you're just moving the goalposts at warp speed. People are disagreeing with this:
Exactly my point, though; some cantrips were reduced to make room for Psychic's versions of them.
Nobody disagrees that Cantrips were changed in the Remaster: that's a basic fact. You've made an assertion as to WHY they were changed that is both nonsensical and contradicts Paizo's statements for the damage numbers (they said they changed those to remove the ability modifier to make it consistent with other spells, I haven't seen them say why things were changed to saves but since spell attack rolls lag behind, it's an effective buff to most casters).
It makes no sense for Paizo to be nerfing Cantrips in the Remaster "to make room for Psychic ones" when some of the Psychic ones get the same nerf (like Telekinetic Projectile) when Paizo also used the Remaster to come out with Live Wire, which is way out of line with the supposedly deliberately nerfed Cantrips.
It also makes no sense that they nerfed Cantrips in the CRB "to make room for Psychic" which would come out years later, especially when the two things people are taking Psychic Dedication for are Imaginary Weapon or Amp Guidance, since its not like Guidance is actually a bad cantrip to begin with. Amp Guidance is just ridiculously good and extremely easy to access.
They did not change in the Remaster.
...Frostbite changed to a save...Ignition was made more variable...cantrips were improved...
Says they weren't changed, then goes on to list cantrips that were changed or improved. Thanks for proving that point.
As for cantrips being "better," they are only really better for one class (the other just piggybacks for one specific cantrip), which is the class that specifically is built for it. They are otherwise, by your own admissions, phased out after 5th level.
Your point was that they were nerfed to make the psychic cantrips look better.
I think I proved that cantrips overall were improved and had nothing to do with the psychic.
The player using frostbite more is the wizard. He considers it better because it added another save cantrip that didn't affect his MAP when he uses a weapon.
They did not change in the Remaster.
...Frostbite changed to a save...Ignition was made more variable...cantrips were improved...
Says they weren't changed, then goes on to list cantrips that were changed or improved. Thanks for proving that point.
As for cantrips being "better," they are only really better for one class (the other just piggybacks for one specific cantrip), which is the class that specifically is built for it. They are otherwise, by your own admissions, phased out after 5th level.
Every single damaging cantrip changed in the remaster, and they weren't "upgraded" so much as changed around at best.*
And this doesn't address the fact that the remaster didn't change:
- Any of the Conscious Mind cantrips, many of which are on the same power level as cantrips that had preceded them**
- It didn't change Mage Hand, Guideance, Detect Magic, Message, Phase Bolt or Warp Step.And again, your theory is that Paizo:
- Willfully underpowered cantrips until the release of Dark Archive (which is 3 full years of development) because of the Psychic.
- Only to then "fix" cantrips with the release of the Remaster, when Paizo had no intention of doing the Remaster in the first place, the books came out 2 years after Dark Archive, and the Remaster itself had a few changes (like Refocusing) that make the Psychic less appealing.So as I said before, utterly deranged.
* Changing from hitting AC to forcing a Save is a +10% chance to succeed in favor of the defender if we retain the same numbers, so this is a nerf unless the Save is 2 or more points lower than AC-10. And you don't need to look far to see places where this isn't the case, or worse, the Save modifier is higher. Overall it's a wash, same with the damage.
** I mean when was the last time anyone said Telekinetic Rend was overpowered? When has anyone sung the praises of Entropic Wheel? Or Hologram Cage? Or Tesseract Tunnel? People...
Gouging claw was improved doing more damage.
Ignition does more damage now in melee. It was improved and made more variable.
Needle Darts was added with the ability to target metal resistances, which can be quite powerful. That is an improvement.
So some cantrips were definitely improved.
the two things people are taking Psychic Dedication for are Imaginary Weapon or Amp Guidance, since its not like Guidance is actually a bad cantrip to begin with. Amp Guidance is just ridiculously good and extremely easy to access.Ok, I can't be silent any longer. Why Warp Step is never mentioned? Has anyone seen what 4th rank Amp does? Teleporting to double your speed with all the bonuses? And maybe even at one action, though I'm not sure if we can add normal Amp and heightened Amp results in this case. But even for 2 actions it's crazy mobility. People seem to like Translocate, but it's 4th rank slot for one-time move! [Which I really dislike] But rather long-range teleporting 3 times per battle, renewable? That's completely different!
It's good, no question. My favorite usage there is "there's obstacles in the way that I want to simply bypass". In combat its still two actions and provokes so while it can get out into a better spot, it has its limits.
I honestly don't see people using Translocate that often anymore (not compared to PF1's Dimension Door which was a staple), but when they do, its because it has significantly more range.
Aside from that... Amp Guidance literally swings outcomes. For the cost of a dedication feat, it's really hard to beat a retroactive bonus that you know will change an outcome when you use it. I had that on my Thaumaturge in Shadows at Sundown and it literally saved a character death, among other outcomes it flipped (ironically the only death was me since I can't use it on myself). Once you have the +2 version it's one of the strongest dedication feat options in the game.
Which isn't a slight against Warp Step at all because it's definitely good, it's just not as good in my experience.
...so cantrips were nerfed to make those of the psychic better when the psychic (the class that is built around them) has a few better than average cantrips and because cantrips were "nerfed" like two years after the release of the psychic in the Remaster?
The psychic is probably one the weakest casters both in the pre-Remaster and specially in the post-Remaster era, so how does it hold up that there's some "hidden agenda" to make psychics better when psychics are actually worse now?
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...so cantrips were nerfed to make those of the psychic better when the psychic (the class that is built around them) has a few better than average cantrips and because cantrips were "nerfed" like two years after the release of the psychic in the Remaster?
The psychic is probably one the weakest casters both in the pre-Remaster and specially in the post-Remaster era, so how does it hold up that there's some "hidden agenda" to make psychics better when psychics are actually worse now?
I'm playing a psychic right now. They do feel worse after the Remaster.
I've used Forbidden Thought time after time after time and I almost never get the stun on another monster's turn. Unlucky rolling sure, but the immunity just means you can't try enough to get lucky.
Most of the other cantrips even amped don't compare to spells. They are better mostly due to volume of use.
Psychic feats are conceptually pretty cool, but in play very underwhelming. The text doesn't match the effect on at least one important ability that allows you to do damage while unleashing psyche to hit foes in a 20 foot emanation. But the actual effect hits everyone, including your allies making it not usable the majority of the time to the point you don't even take it. Who wants to unleash on their allies in a 20 foot emanation while your allies are engaged and taking damage.
Psychic is another one of the conceptually great classes that needs a serious clean up re-design for usability.
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The text doesn't match the effect on at least one important ability that allows you to do damage while unleashing psyche to hit foes in a 20 foot emanation. But the actual effect hits everyone, including your allies making it not usable the majority of the time to the point you don't even take it. Who wants to unleash on their allies in a 20 foot emanation while your allies are engaged and taking damage.It's ridiculous how many cool and flavourful psychic's abilities they've made that nobody would ever use because they harm allies...
Exactly.
How do they design these abilities that hurt your allies and think that's usable? Do they really think players want to do damage to their allies?
I picked up Dark Persona Presence and had to get rid of it because it was hammering my allies. Couldn't get the head blowing up feat or the feat that does the big unleash in 20 feet.
When designers are sitting their looking at a class's abilities and how they will be used in combat, why do they not see how unusable they made something? Hitting your own group with that many abilities is a no go on top of the close proximity to use most of these abilities.
I've taken like maybe three psychic feats up to level 12 because they psychic feats are so bad. I've defaulted to archetype feats because I look at the psychic feats and think "Sounds cool", then imagine using them in combat and they are terrible.
That class needs a serious rework for usability including the feats. I like the concept, but boy the feats are pretty terrible.
A well coordinated party can use friendly fire spells and abilities pretty effectively if it is a part of the party plan. Resistance to the major damage types, and items like the backfire mantle can let the beastly AoE stuff really shine. In our party of Alchemist, Wizard, and 2 Kineticists, we had to learn how to play around everything being on fire and it is working out pretty well for us.
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A well coordinated party can use friendly fire spells and abilities pretty effectively if it is a part of the party plan. Resistance to the major damage types, and items like the backfire mantle can let the beastly AoE stuff really shine. In our party of Alchemist, Wizard, and 2 Kineticists, we had to learn how to play around everything being on fire and it is working out pretty well for us.
Class abilities should not be built requiring that level of party coordination. It really hurts the psychic class to have feats that require harming the party as well as being close to the battle.
This is not about coordinating an AOE. This is a major class ability like Unleash Psyche requiring both close proximity to the battle and operating in an uncontrolled emanation originating around the psychic requiring them to be in a certain range to use with the emanation occurring in all directions around the psychic.
Dark Persona's Presence is a 30 foot emanation around the psychic.
Violent Unleash in a 20 foot emanation.
Psi Catastrophe is a 20 foot emanation.
Cranial Detonation is a 15 foot emanation around the head. Cranial Detonation is likely the most usable of the bunch.
That's four major class feats the psychic harms the party with using a major part of the Psychic's unleash which only lasts 2 rounds and ends up applying Stupefy to a caster class.
Then a bunch of class feats of questionable value.
Psychic is one of those classes where the inspiration and concept is cool. You can see the designer was watching movies like scanners and other movies based around psychic type of abilities, but you can also tell not as much thought was put in to how this would work in play.
It's a bit like the witch prior to the Remaster. There should be more thought put into how a class plays within a group environment for ability design than just, "This is cool" absent any thought put in to how it plays in an encounter.
You can picture these abilities working. Problem in that picture is your fellow PCs are getting hit too or you are getting extremely exposed to melee battle as a caster.
It makes the class not so attractive to play.