Can we talk about the ABCD's


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

And by D, I mean "Do your 4 free boosts, dammit."

And by talk about it, I mean "Why does everyone at Paizo call it ABC so that many people miss the 4th step and end up with a -4 to their modifier total?"

When I started the groups I'm running now, I had people skipping that step completely.

Is there a way to get some accounting for this into the official promotional content?

"Ancestry, Background, Class" that's what everyone says, and there's something missing when this message goes out to people.

Sovereign Court

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Going by page 20 of the CRB 'D' is for:

Quote:

Ancestry: Each ancestry provides ability boosts, and sometimes an ability flaw. If you are taking any voluntary flaws, apply them in this step (see the sidebar on page 24).

Background: Your character’s background provides two ability boosts.

Class: Your character’s class provides an ability boost to the ability score most important to your class, called your key ability score.

Determine Scores: After the other steps, you apply four more ability boosts of your choice. Then, determine your ability modifiers based on those scores.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It's there. People are missing it. Much of the promotional material implies there are only three steps. I feel like this is a solvable problem.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Quick fix proposition:

Ancestry
Background
Class
For Frak's sake don't forget your Free Ability Boosts!

Pretty much covers it I think, and it's catchy too.


There are many apps for chargen, most of which are free, and will correctly apply and total all bonuses.

I consider this a solved problem.


I think he is talking about the advertising. Not whether apps do it correctly. Not everyone uses apps to make characters.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the D got dropped from the promotional stuff because of how the alphabet is colloquially referred to as "the ABCs", so it's a more recognizable phrase to talk about "the ABCs of character creation" than if they had said "the ABCDs"


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Umutuku wrote:
When I started the groups I'm running now, I had people skipping that step completely.

If people skip the introductory section... I mean, I know people who have, but still... Judging them is also fine.

Sovereign Court

I'm not sure what promotional stuff you're talking about, but if anyone tells you that all you need to know is this little leaflet and that you don't need to really read the 650 page book at all... you should know that that can't be the whole story.

At some point a player's gonna have to take a real look at the book, if only to see what their class can do. A great thing for a player to read would be page 30, which gives an example of complete character creation on a single page. One page shouldn't be too much to ask for people to read...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

The Introductory section of the CRB is fantastic, and is really a valuable read.

Silver Crusade

11 people marked this as a favorite.

I see your ABCs and raise you RTFM.


Rysky wrote:
I see your ABCs and raise you RTFM.

Raid Tripoli for Mother?


Rysky wrote:
I see your ABCs and raise you RTFM.

That's cheating. You see or you raise. As soon as you say "I see your ABCs" you get information on your opponent's reactions, and then it's cheating to raise. No casino would allow it.

edit: I guess some shady ones may allow it, I guess these are the ones where fights break out :-)


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I’ve considered D: for Details, including the free boosts and buying equipment and any other remaining decisions.


I'm with Grognard on this one..


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Temperans wrote:
I think he is talking about the advertising.

Yeah, this is what I'm getting at. Those are the opportunities to teach/preach the core concepts, and I think there's room for improvement.


EMS use to use ABC's for Airway, Breathing and Circulation. They added D before I moved on from ems to stand for Defibrillator. It was easy enough to say/remember but that may be due to it being drilled into us for 8 hours once every few years.


9 people marked this as a favorite.

Ancestry
Background
Class
Details
Equipment
Finish
Game!


Kennethray wrote:
EMS use to use ABC's for Airway, Breathing and Circulation. They added D before I moved on from ems to stand for Defibrillator. It was easy enough to say/remember but that may be due to it being drilled into us for 8 hours once every few years.

So, it should be

Ancestry
Background
Class
Defibrilator?

Not sure how many gaming tables will go for their players being shocked to the heart as part of character creation, but it does set the scene for a Druid heavy campaign, or a hardcore party :P


The ABC's aren't really about making character creation easier to remember, they are about making character creation seem simple / easy to do.

Add another letter or two to that mix and it implies extra steps and turns off the people it is there to placate in the first place.

Now we can argue about attempts to appeal to the lowest common denominator, but I would like people to remember that being lazy doesn't mean someone isn't intelligent enough to enjoy a system. Breaking through that appeal blocker is less about actual difficulty (past a point) but more about promising "hey I swear, try this game, it won't take that much time to try"


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have honestly found that the things that players forget least often are the things that help them get bigger numbers.

I've seen players forget every part of the background step except "+2 to two stats" more than I've seen people skip the part that lets you get an 18 in your best stat.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

ancestry background class dragon

Everyone brings a dragon, right?


I felt like the ABC thing already stretched its usefulness when they added the Heritages to the Ancestry. AhBCs (for subclass) doesn't quiet have the same ring unfortunately.


Don't forget the Defibrillator...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I thought that they had dropped the ABC description after the Pathfinder 2nd Edition playtest. I searched for the word "ABC" in my PF2 Core Rulebook PDF and did not find it. Since Umutuku mentions promotional material, I searched the internet. The video Pathfinder advertisement at https://paizo.com/pathfinder does narrate, "And making your character is as easy as ABC."

The Introduction chapter of the PF2 Core Rulebook does use the list "Ancestry, Background, Class" a lot. Page 9 under Defining Characters boldfaces the three words in a paragraph about key choices. The Key Terms glossary on page 12 has the terms in alphabetical order, but with other entries between Ancestry, Background, and Class. The feat entry says, "A feat is an ability you can select for your character due to their ancestry, background, class, general training, or skill training." The chapter summaries on page 18 says, "Ancestry, background, and class can define some of a character’s skill proficiencies." More at pages 20, 21, 24, and 26.

Two of them go into full ABCD. Ascalaphus already mentioned Ancestry, Background, Class, and Determine Scores as four headings on page 20. Page 21 has a single heading, "Ancestry, Background, Class, or Details."

However, the comprehensive description of the steps from pages 21 to 29 muddles the alphabet:
Step 1. Create a Concept
Step 2. Start Building Ability Scores
Step 3. Select an Ancestry
Step 4. Pick a Background
Step 5. Choose a Class
Step 6. Determine Ability Scores
Step 7. Record Class Details
Step 8. Buy Equipment
Step 9. Calculate Modifiers
Step 10. Finishing Details
That comes out as CSABCDDEMF from Concept, Scores, Ancestry, Background, Class, Determine, Details, Equipment, Modifiers, and Finishing.


I recall the D being called "Development" a few times during the playtest, but I think that was just the forum talking instead of coming from the designers. I like Edlwir's version even better though.


7 people marked this as a favorite.
Mathmuse wrote:
That comes out as CSABCDDEMF

Ah, that takes me back to my childhood in R'lyeh, learning my CSABCDDEMFs. "Now I know my CSABCDDEMFs, next time won't you sing with me" we would chant, happily waving our tentacles.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
That comes out as CSABCDDEMF
Ah, that takes me back to my childhood in R'lyeh, learning my CSABCDDEMFs. "Now I know my CSABCDDEMFs, next time won't you sing with me" we would chant, happily waving our tentacles.

Can't forget those MFs


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kelseus wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
That comes out as CSABCDDEMF
Ah, that takes me back to my childhood in R'lyeh, learning my CSABCDDEMFs. "Now I know my CSABCDDEMFs, next time won't you sing with me" we would chant, happily waving our tentacles.
Can't forget those MFs

Aberration-bloodline sorcerers have to come from somewhere!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

drAgon
Bdragon
Cdragon
Dragon

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think of it as your 1, 2, 3, 4's instead of the letters. And that's often the order I do them in too.

1 boost for your Class. (Choosing your class is one of the first choices you tend to make for a new character)

2 boosts for your Background.

3 boosts for your Ancestry. (Ok, only 2 if you choose Human, but that's easy to remember, and you could say that Humans must choose 1 flawed stat, giving them 3 boosts to spend as well...)

And then 4 boosts for your finishing step.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Being of scientific mind I am usually going by this simple check:

If ability bonus total <> 9 you fracked up somwhere during character creation!

Obviously this is ignoring taking any optional voluntary flaws.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / General Discussion / Can we talk about the ABCD's All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.