Now that I have seen him in action...


Magus Class

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I want 1/round Magus single action focus cantrips that lock you out of casting any other spell that round.

Scarab Sages

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Martialmasters wrote:
kripdenn wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

I do agree Magus has some issues. But I'm not sure how they can improve upon the current spell strike and keep it as flexible and as in line with current game mechanics.

I assume the critical effect in place is due to them considering it too powerful to consider it all as one strike with one roll. So this was their half measure.

But at level 1, if you need to get into melee, spell strike with slide casting.

But also, probably just magic weapon lol.

I do agree, there needs to be more reason to actually use it. A Magus using spell strike should be better than a Magus casting a spell and striking. Right now that is only situationally the case.

I just don't know how they fit it into their budget for the feature.

I have a thread graphing the damage of the playtest striking spell against an at level median AC creature with a flurry ranger for comparison. I also graphed what changes to striking spell would to the damage like adding the potency rune item bonus and having the spell attack have the same degree of success as the strike. Here's the thread link.

So, I have minor issue with this comparison. I think I get why you used it (using all your actions to attack), however. Flurry ranger, from what I've seen, has some of the highest damage in the game with the least versatility and variation from round to round as they realistically use every action to attack becoming a stationary turret.

I think a better comparison will be a swashbuckler as they have setup actions and damage actions and their playstyle revolves around that gameplay loop.

Not too invalidate your information, I'm sure it has value.

My experience playing a swashbuckler has been that it’s the most difficult and frustrating martial class to play, because you waste a lot of actions trying and failing to get panache, then deal low damage when you don’t have it. It doesn’t seem like the kind of thing Magus should aspire to be. When swashbuckler works, it’s fun and fine. When it doesn’t, it’s incredibly frustrating. You are correct in that Magus is shaping up to be similar.


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Ferious Thune wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
kripdenn wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

I do agree Magus has some issues. But I'm not sure how they can improve upon the current spell strike and keep it as flexible and as in line with current game mechanics.

I assume the critical effect in place is due to them considering it too powerful to consider it all as one strike with one roll. So this was their half measure.

But at level 1, if you need to get into melee, spell strike with slide casting.

But also, probably just magic weapon lol.

I do agree, there needs to be more reason to actually use it. A Magus using spell strike should be better than a Magus casting a spell and striking. Right now that is only situationally the case.

I just don't know how they fit it into their budget for the feature.

I have a thread graphing the damage of the playtest striking spell against an at level median AC creature with a flurry ranger for comparison. I also graphed what changes to striking spell would to the damage like adding the potency rune item bonus and having the spell attack have the same degree of success as the strike. Here's the thread link.

So, I have minor issue with this comparison. I think I get why you used it (using all your actions to attack), however. Flurry ranger, from what I've seen, has some of the highest damage in the game with the least versatility and variation from round to round as they realistically use every action to attack becoming a stationary turret.

I think a better comparison will be a swashbuckler as they have setup actions and damage actions and their playstyle revolves around that gameplay loop.

Not too invalidate your information, I'm sure it has value.

My experience playing a swashbuckler has been that it’s the most difficult and frustrating martial class to play, because you waste a lot of actions trying and failing to get panache, then deal low...

Yeah swashbuckler is definitely not a good class. It's just a good comparison.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
kripdenn wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

I do agree Magus has some issues. But I'm not sure how they can improve upon the current spell strike and keep it as flexible and as in line with current game mechanics.

I assume the critical effect in place is due to them considering it too powerful to consider it all as one strike with one roll. So this was their half measure.

But at level 1, if you need to get into melee, spell strike with slide casting.

But also, probably just magic weapon lol.

I do agree, there needs to be more reason to actually use it. A Magus using spell strike should be better than a Magus casting a spell and striking. Right now that is only situationally the case.

I just don't know how they fit it into their budget for the feature.

I have a thread graphing the damage of the playtest striking spell against an at level median AC creature with a flurry ranger for comparison. I also graphed what changes to striking spell would to the damage like adding the potency rune item bonus and having the spell attack have the same degree of success as the strike. Here's the thread link.

So, I have minor issue with this comparison. I think I get why you used it (using all your actions to attack), however. Flurry ranger, from what I've seen, has some of the highest damage in the game with the least versatility and variation from round to round as they realistically use every action to attack becoming a stationary turret.

I think a better comparison will be a swashbuckler as they have setup actions and damage actions and their playstyle revolves around that gameplay loop.

Not too invalidate your information, I'm sure it has value.

My experience playing a swashbuckler has been that it’s the most difficult and frustrating martial class to play, because you waste a lot of actions trying and failing to
...

Maybe Rogue would be a better class to compare to. Mechanics that are not always on, but a damage dealing focus.

I would totally be ok with the Magus lagging behind a Rogue with sneak attack while employing cantrip+spell strike, but outdoing them via slotted spellstrike


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richienvh wrote:

Maybe Rogue would be a better class to compare to. Mechanics that are not always on, but a damage dealing focus.

I would totally be ok with the Magus lagging behind a Rogue with sneak attack while employing cantrip+spell strike, but outdoing them via slotted spellstrike

Given that there are 42 ways to generate Flat-Footed (some of them you yourself don't even need to do, and which benefit multiple people) but only one way to imbue your weapon with a spell...

...I'm not really sure its a fair comparison.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Draco18s wrote:
richienvh wrote:

Maybe Rogue would be a better class to compare to. Mechanics that are not always on, but a damage dealing focus.

I would totally be ok with the Magus lagging behind a Rogue with sneak attack while employing cantrip+spell strike, but outdoing them via slotted spellstrike

Given that there are 42 ways to generate Flat-Footed (some of them you yourself don't even need to do, and which benefit multiple people) but only one way to imbue your weapon with a spell...

...I'm not really sure its a fair comparison.

An that is exactly why Striking Spell needs some serious adjustments to make it more reliable =)

Rogue has ways to get targets flat-footed and even Swashbuckler has multiple ways to generate panache.

Sadly, Magus’ hopes of nova’ing rely on them being very very lucky


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Martialmasters wrote:
I do agree Magus has some issues. But I'm not sure how they can improve upon the current spell strike and keep it as flexible and as in line with current game mechanics.

Which is why I think spell strike is a dead end. With the tight math of PF2, it's going to be really, really hard to find a sweet spot where it boosts damage by the right amount over a hypothetical baseline martial*.

That's why I think giving the magus cool abilities that aren't technically spells are a better way to go. This would also be a place to put in some battlefield control that's otherwise rather hard to come by in PF2.

* As in, a hypothetical class that gets training in martial weapons, expert at 5th level, and master at 13th, but no special abilities to boost damage.


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It's honestly not that hard.
They can keep the current Striking Spell as spell combat, opening possibilities to fire any spell in a single action at the cost of setting it up in advance.
Then make Spell Strike the ability to deliver attack and saves spells on a foe through a weapon strike, using only the strike's result for attack spells.

From what some have calculated, it stays in line (and slightly below) with martial's damages when using cantrips, only outdamaging them substantially when using a spellslot for the highest damaging spell available.
Which is like the point of the magus.


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Its fine if the magus has their average damage (i.e. cantrips + abilities) be below a fighter, I have no problems with that. The problem is that their average damage (cantrip + abilities) is lower than their own three-strikes turn. Or very nearly.

Not everyone needs to be "best at damage" but taking the thing that makes you special and making it worst than normal just Feels Bad.

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