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From a balance perspective you are never going to get what a dragon should be and what it is in the monster manual from your dragon eidolon.
Which means any dragon eidolon is fundamentally going to be disappointing because it can never live up to its hgih concept.
This isn't a problem for the other eidolons as much because they cover a lot more concepts that scale better in level.
If its not for you then that's fine. Dragon Eidolons seem great to me. Only thing I want fixed is the ability to cast an Activity with my Dragon Pet while Summoner is casting a spell, currently something locked out by how Act Together is written. Fix that and Dragon has officially reached a good spot.
I don't really care if I can't play with an Ancient Dragon at level 1. Drakes exist for a reason, and your Eidolon can evolve past that.
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What should a dragon be?
A 20th level Dragon Eidolon can effortlessly beat any Adult Dragon in combat, and most Ancient Dragons as well. Ancient Reds or Golds might be a bit tricky, but that's still a hell of a bar to be reaching.
It has a breath weapon that deals functionally 20d6 damage in a 30 foot cone, Huge size, and a fly speed.
It has Draconic frenzy and draconic momentum.
The only thing it's currently missing is a damage immunity and a Roar.
Damage immunity is too much for a PC ability, but a damage resistance is certainly a reasonable ask for an evolution, as is a generic frightening presence evolution.
Certain monster abilities shouldn't be given to characters, but most of the dragon package is very reasonable to acquire, or to replicate as closely as possible.
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What should a dragon be?
A 20th level Dragon Eidolon can effortlessly beat any Adult Dragon in combat, and most Ancient Dragons as well. Ancient Reds or Golds might be a bit tricky, but that's still a hell of a bar to be reaching.
It has a breath weapon that deals functionally 20d6 damage in a 30 foot cone, Huge size, and a fly speed.
It has Draconic frenzy and draconic momentum.
The only thing it's currently missing is a damage immunity and a Roar.
Damage immunity is too much for a PC ability, but a damage resistance is certainly a reasonable ask for an evolution, as is a generic frightening presence evolution.
Certain monster abilities shouldn't be given to characters, but most of the dragon package is very reasonable to acquire, or to replicate as closely as possible.
If we share HP..
I disagree. If my Eidolon is immune to fire that doesn't mean I am. It offers flavor with an easy way around it.
I could see it being an evolution at high levels.
Level 10
Resistive Evolution
Summoner/Evolution/Eidolon
Prereq: Your Eidolon has an elemental trait.
Your Eidolon gains immunity to Elemental Traits it possesses.
If that ends up being too busted, make it have a prerequisite stepping stone feat at earlier levels that gives an Elemental Trait and Resistance to your Eidolon, and make this feat be the upgrade at 12+.
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Sidenote: I literally ran an encounter that had an anti-party of Jungle Drakes ambush the player party on a bridge 2 weeks ago. Summoner Eidolon actually does a great job of being a PC-balanced Drake, only thing they're really missing is Grab, but that isn't too surprising.
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Yeah I've mentioned it elsewhere that I could see Eidolons getting Monster Abilities through a Level 8 Evolution, since thaf's the level Druid Animals get their Advanced Maneuver, many of which are directly inspired by Monster Abilities. If that's too strong, make the Weapon evolution be a prerequisite for it.
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Pathfinder has never been all about Dragons like the respected competition is. It's entirely okay to have some Dragons who kind of suck.
I mean, your faerie dragon familiar not being truly terrifying even at level 20 does not impugn the virtue of ancient gold dragons.
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out of all the substantial issues summoner may possess
i feel like this is not one of them.
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I think any dragon-themed option is better than no dragon-themed option. Gatekeeping dragon-ness of class options is just going to limit the ways I can try to play a dragon themed character.
I love dragons.
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Strange, I liked the one I played during a test session.
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I agree with Waterslethe. I like any dragon themed content. As for power and balance, as others have said if a LVL 20 dragon eidolon can put the smackdown on a actual True Adult Dragon then I don't see any problem.
I already have a character in mind using the Royalty background to play a princess and the dragon that kidnapped her. And by "dragon" I mean dragon eidolon, and by "kidnapped" I mean ran away with.
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I agree with Waterslethe. I like any dragon themed content. As for power and balance, as others have said if a LVL 20 dragon eidolon can put the smackdown on a actual True Adult Dragon then I don't see any problem.
I already have a character in mind using the Royalty background to play a princess and the dragon that kidnapped her. And by "dragon" I mean dragon eidolon, and by "kidnapped" I mean ran away with.
This is the best idea I've seen yet.
So far the best/worst idea I've had yet is a slightly embarrassed/proud little old nun Summoner with her ridiculous ripped and shirtless himbo of an angel.
"Yes, I know Dorothy's 'friend' is a bit of a scandal... but surely we should, uh, have another inspection to properly make up our minds?"
Yes, I know it's a terrible idea.
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My most creative ideas for character concepts have always been with Summoner/eidolon. Having two entities to play with gives you a much higher degree of freedom, and I love that.
Both the princess/dragon and the nun/angel ones are brilliant. In PF1 I had some with a ninja and his shadow, or a rogue and his twin. I hope I get to play some of them someday.
Now there's an idea for a non phantom based occult eidolon. A doppelganger would be a fun way to do an eidolon.
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I totally love the new dragon eidolons. Although, an exclusive short range flight ability and/or an at-will Cantrip level weaker Breath Weapon option from the start would be appreciable.
I totally love the new dragon eidolons. Although, an exclusive short range flight ability and/or an at-will Cantrip level weaker Breath Weapon option from the start would be appreciable.
I can't help you with short ranged flight (though they are top tier at Athletics! If only they could get Quick Leap...) but Magical Evolution for a Cantrip can get you the next thing to a mini breath attack, since you get to use your Summoners spell stats to cast it.
Its not amazing or anything, but if its just the flavor you want its workable.
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Reminds me of the good old day when dragons came from space and breathed fire, flew several hundred feat in a round and where their mere prescense scared everyone silly.
Are we talking about Dragons here, or one of the servants of the Great Old Ones?
I agree with Waterslethe. I like any dragon themed content. As for power and balance, as others have said if a LVL 20 dragon eidolon can put the smackdown on a actual True Adult Dragon then I don't see any problem.
I already have a character in mind using the Royalty background to play a princess and the dragon that kidnapped her. And by "dragon" I mean dragon eidolon, and by "kidnapped" I mean ran away with.
This is the best idea I've seen yet.
So far the best/worst idea I've had yet is a slightly embarrassed/proud little old nun Summoner with her ridiculous ripped and shirtless himbo of an angel.
"Yes, I know Dorothy's 'friend' is a bit of a scandal... but surely we should, uh, have another inspection to properly make up our minds?"
Yes, I know it's a terrible idea.
Reminds me of Old Woman Josie in Welcome to Night Vale!
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From a balance perspective you are never going to get what a dragon should be and what it is in the monster manual from your dragon eidolon.
I don't see a problem.
Which means any dragon eidolon is fundamentally going to be disappointing because it can never live up to its hgih concept.
Neither did my 1E eidolon.
And you know what?It wasn't a problem.
I still called it a dragon, I still made it look like one, and no one disagreed. It doesn't even have honking WINGS yet (outside of Lesser Evolution Surge, which I've used exactly twice and both times for Flight).
If anything, the 2E dragon form eidolon is more "dragon" than what I did in 1E!
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Have to agree... considering your dragon eidolon can end up a Huge size flying monster with a breath weapon and the very iconic (at least to 2e) draconic frenzy ability... not really seeing how that isn't a dragon.