Synthesist Power Up

[Verzen]

CrimsonKnight wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Idea for Synthesis.

The living Synthesis within hampers the mental abilities of the user, providing a permanent -2 to wis, int, and charisma.

While merged with the Eidolon, the Eidolon uses the Summoners mental stats and the Eidolons physical stats.

At level 5, 10, 15, 20, every time you get a stat boost of +2, that stat boost only applies to your Eidolon. If boosting a mental ability score, that boost only applies when the Eidolon is manifested.

While manifested, you can still use abilities, cast spells, etc etc.

nice but how about. While merged with the Eidolon, the fusion uses the Eidolon's stats.

At level 5, 10, 15, 20, every time you get a stat boost of +2, that stat boost must be the same between summoner and Eidolon. (makes it more difficult to exploit the stats wile giving the ability to boost the summoner's stats)

While manifested, you can still use abilities, cast spells, etc etc. The eidolon is considered to have two "hands" to manipulate objects or preform skills regardless of form.
the Recall knowledge action still uses the associated stat from the summoner.

feat
greater Synthesis
the summoner's racial feats apply wile in Synthesis

Uh I don't know why the ancestral feats wouldn't automatically apply while in synthesis. All feats should apply as a baseline. I don't need to take a class feat for any other class in order to access my ancestral feats.

[CrimsonKnight]

Verzen wrote:

CrimsonKnight wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Idea for Synthesis.

The living Synthesis within hampers the mental abilities of the user, providing a permanent -2 to wis, int, and charisma.

While merged with the Eidolon, the Eidolon uses the Summoners mental stats and the Eidolons physical stats.

At level 5, 10, 15, 20, every time you get a stat boost of +2, that stat boost only applies to your Eidolon. If boosting a mental ability score, that boost only applies when the Eidolon is manifested.

While manifested, you can still use abilities, cast spells, etc etc.

nice but how about. While merged with the Eidolon, the fusion uses the Eidolon's stats.

At level 5, 10, 15, 20, every time you get a stat boost of +2, that stat boost must be the same between summoner and Eidolon. (makes it more difficult to exploit the stats wile giving the ability to boost the summoner's stats)

While manifested, you can still use abilities, cast spells, etc etc. The eidolon is considered to have two "hands" to manipulate objects or preform skills regardless of form.
the Recall knowledge action still uses the associated stat from the summoner.

feat
greater Synthesis
the summoner's racial feats apply wile in Synthesis

Uh I don't know why the ancestral feats wouldn't automatically apply while in synthesis. All feats should apply as a baseline. I don't need to take a class feat for any other class in order to access my ancestral feats.

ok I was thinking different stats, body, species under regular synth it is eidolon doing the actions and only actions the eidolon can do ...but I'm all for racial feats. kobold...dragon...evolution...

[Katrixia]

CrimsonKnight wrote:

feat
greater Synthesis
the summoner's racial feats apply wile in Synthesis

I really don't see Synth working as a feat chain; i really think only as a subclass could it be done justice.

Mostly because there's no way you can have a regular Eidolon be better than what a Synth can do (If Synth costs feats) and say it's balanced.

A Fused Eidolon is supposed to be better than just the 1 Eidolon. You give up so much as a Synth, there has to be some reward for the commitment.

[CrimsonKnight]

-Poison- wrote:

CrimsonKnight wrote:

feat
greater Synthesis
the summoner's racial feats apply wile in Synthesis

I really don't see Synth working as a feat chain; i really think only as a subclass could it be done justice.

Mostly because there's no way you can have a regular Eidolon be better than what a Synth can do (If Synth costs feats) and say it's balanced.

A Fused Eidolon is supposed to be better than just the 1 Eidolon. You give up so much as a Synth, there has to be some reward for the commitment.

currently the synth is basically only equal to the Eidolon. the class supposed to be as "powerful" as eidolon + summoner. We will not get patch notes for this playtest so we do not know if the subclass will be an option or the direction paizo will eventually publish.

there are three basic ways to get the power that is the duo.
1. the eidolon can become stronger
2. the sacrifice can be reduced (or eliminated)
3. a mix of the two above

problem how I see it is the more of the first option the more likely the complaints from PF1 will come again.
option two's problem is there must be some cost at least opportunity cost.
option three becomes the only viable option. the question is how much of the focus will be on strengthening or sacrifice reduction.

let us for the sake of this example assume it is a 50/50 (a stronger eidolon and reduced cost like getting back spellcasting) split and now the synth eidolon is as capable as one built under the other subclasses. Feats are a way for the player to regain some things sacrificed and other feats can make the eidolon stronger. As a player you will then have choices for example accepting the initial(at time of book release) and putting your feats into your eidolon making your eidolon very powerful

[Katrixia]

CrimsonKnight wrote:

problem how I see it is the more of the first option the more likely the complaints from PF1 will come again.
option two's problem is there must be some cost at least opportunity cost.
option three becomes the only viable option. the question is how much of the focus will be on strengthening or sacrifice reduction.

let us for the sake of this example assume it is a 50/50 (a stronger eidolon and reduced cost like getting back spellcasting) split and now the synth eidolon is as capable as one built under the other subclasses. Feats are a way for the player to regain some things sacrificed and other feats can make the eidolon stronger. As a player you will then have choices for example accepting the initial(at time of book release) and putting your feats into your eidolon making your eidolon very powerful

There is 0 reason to fear PF1 Summoner coming to 2e; natural attacks don't exist and getting your own mental stats isn't even that big an incentive when you already get boosts to the Eidolon.

The Eidolon should be stronger, making it cost feats would mean the regular Eidolon now has feats over you, is why it would need to be a subclass.

I agree that option 2 is not desired, people want to be stuck only being able to manifest as a Synth, they want the restrictions that add flavor to what Synthesist is so that it can attain something for the sacrifices. They want the exchange.

I don't see a mix of two being the answer, again, i am not a fan of mediocrity. A mix of two through a feat-chain would mean that the regular Eidolon would also have access and that there'd be no reason to believe the Synthesist would somehow be better in that scenario. That would make Synthesist a disappointing experience in comparison.

A Synthesist gives up action economy, versatility, and spellcasting.
Give me nice things that would rival that in value.
A Synthesist wants power in exchange for those things.

Note:By the way, i hope i don't come off as aggressive hahaha i enjoy talking about this stuff and seeing your POV, sincerely :)

[CrimsonKnight]

-Poison- wrote:

There is 0 reason to fear PF1 Summoner coming to 2e; natural attacks don't exist and getting your own mental stats isn't even that big an incentive when you already get boosts to the Eidolon.
The Eidolon should be stronger, making it cost feats would mean the regular Eidolon now has feats over you, is why it would need to be a subclass.

I agree that option 2 is not desired, people want to be stuck only being able to manifest as a Synth, they want the restrictions that add flavor to what Synthesist is so that it can attain something for the sacrifices. They want the exchange.

I don't see a mix of two being the answer, again, i am not a fan of mediocrity. A mix of two through a feat-chain would mean that the regular Eidolon would also have access and that there'd be no reason to believe the Synthesist would somehow be better in that scenario. That would make Synthesist a disappointing experience in comparison.

A Synthesist gives up action economy, versatility, and spellcasting.
Give me nice things that would rival that in value.
A Synthesist wants power in exchange for those things.

Note:By the way, i hope i don't come off as aggressive...

The PF1 summoner isn't coming back does not however mean the complaints wont. One reason it was banned was because of the complainers.

It sounds like to me you and some others (maybe the majority) are looking for a barbarian+ even more restrictive for even more power. I see that as a way of getting it banned. Something I don't want.

Then take some feats to make it more powerful or take some feats to reduce the restrictions.

Looking at the druid orders (especially without order explorer feat) it is fairly simple to limit those feats to the sub class.

As this class looks like a mix between a pet class and a caster class some mediocrity is inevitable.
I understand the appeal of a full pet class or being a super pet. For me magic is super.

I don't find you aggressive. You are passionate about what you feel. Besides it is not like my ideas are very popular.