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There's been some side discussion in other threads about the Magus Potency ability-- its a feature that puts you a little ahead (+1) of your to-hit for about 2 levels whenever it heightens before it eventually stops doing so. Similarly the rune impression feature doesn't seem super useful either.
Simultaneously, the very low number of spells slots that we have feel very scarce for a class that feels like it wants to use them in tandem with a feature like Spell Striking.
I'd like to suggest we solve both problems by eliminating the current focus spells, and replacing them with damage focus spells designed to be used alongside Spell Striking. So that you have a consistent and renewable resource to use with your Spell Striking-- as usual for Focus Spells, they'd do less damage than your proper high tier slots, but more than cantrips.
What do you all think?
I'd agree with that. Especially if there were a mechanic to regain focus points in combat somehow. Say a feat to let you regain focus points in exchange for being Stunned 3 or something?
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I agree wholeheartedly. Striking Spell should be something the Magus wants to do as much as possible. I think the number of spells is fine balance wise, but doesn't really live up to the Magus fantasy. Offensive focus spells would alleviate a lot of that.
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So we are ignoring that they can use cantrips with the Striking Spell?
I think the main question is why you would want to?
For an attack-roll based spell, it lets you ignore MAP.
For a save-based spell (like electric arc), there's no real benefit aside from triggering effects that only go off when you use Striking Spell. Neither the spell, nor the Strike, gain any advantage. Also the Spell has an increased chance to do nothing (via missed Strikes).
I guess that's the main issue, thinking about it. Striking spell feels like it makes your cast spells WORSE, rather than better. You may get an advantage, by getting a free Stride or Temp HP or triggering some other effect, but the spell itself feels like it was made worse.
The current main focus spell is just magic weapon. Which would be ok, if it could work with potency and striking runes, but it does not.
Maybe that focus spell should work more like true strike?
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So we are ignoring that they can use cantrips with the Striking Spell?I think the main question is why you would want to?
Because it is free and doesn't use any resources? Because I wouldn't want to use full fledged spells on mooks? Because if I want to do serious damage, I will be casting an actual spell? Because Magus Potency keeps you slightly ahead of the rest of the martial curve (fighters not included) on weapon attack bonus? Because both Magus Potency and Hasted Assault last a minute, which is most if not all of a fight?
Unless the damaging cantrip is a 1 action focus spell that will do more damage than an at-level cantrip, I see no reason for it's existence.
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So we are ignoring that they can use cantrips with the Striking Spell?I think the main question is why you would want to?Because it is free and doesn't use any resources? Because I wouldn't want to use full fledged spells on mooks? Because if I want to do serious damage, I will be casting an actual spell? Because Magus Potency keeps you slightly ahead of the rest of the martial curve (fighters not included) on weapon attack bonus? Because both Magus Potency and Hasted Assault last a minute, which is most if not all of a fight?
Unless the damaging cantrip is a 1 action focus spell that will do more damage than an at-level cantrip, I see no reason for it's existence.
But why not just cast Electric Arc, the best cantrip, and then strike normally? As long as the enemy is in melee range it seems superior to Spell Strike because you don't have to rely on hitting with your strike and you then get the added benefit of getting two targets with it by default. The ~5% extra chance to worsen their save/improve your hit almost certainly doesn't make up for the chance to not land a Strike.
The same goes with all save based spells, they get no benefit out of ignoring MAP and they are usually better than spell attacks because they get an effect on an enemy success, which is the most likely outcome. In fact an enemy success is the most likely outcome for normal casters, and a Magus's spell attack/DC will be 2-3 lower than that, which is an absurd swing in this edition.
Why would I want to use these offensive spells that rely on statistically unlikely rolls when I could focus on utility/support spells that don't need a roll? By requiring a hit with a Strike and then a hit with a low proficiency, secondary stat spell you basically give up all hopes of reliably landing Spell Strike.
The current main focus spell is just magic weapon. Which would be ok, if it could work with potency and striking runes, but it does not.
Maybe that focus spell should work more like true strike?
I feel like the current focus spell is a fine first level feat, its especially nice for making a backup weapon useful. its a pretty lackluster core feature though.
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So we are ignoring that they can use cantrips with the Striking Spell?I think the main question is why you would want to?Because it is free and doesn't use any resources? Because I wouldn't want to use full fledged spells on mooks? Because if I want to do serious damage, I will be casting an actual spell? Because Magus Potency keeps you slightly ahead of the rest of the martial curve (fighters not included) on weapon attack bonus? Because both Magus Potency and Hasted Assault last a minute, which is most if not all of a fight?
Unless the damaging cantrip is a 1 action focus spell that will do more damage than an at-level cantrip, I see no reason for it's existence.
But why not just cast Electric Arc, the best cantrip, and then strike normally? As long as the enemy is in melee range it seems superior to Spell Strike because you don't have to rely on hitting with your strike and you then get the added benefit of getting two targets with it by default. The ~5% extra chance to worsen their save/improve your hit almost certainly doesn't make up for the chance to not land a Strike.
The same goes with all save based spells, they get no benefit out of ignoring MAP and they are usually better than spell attacks because they get an effect on an enemy success, which is the most likely outcome. In fact an enemy success is the most likely outcome for normal casters, and a Magus's spell attack/DC will be 2-3 lower than that, which is an absurd swing in this edition.
Why would I want to use these offensive spells that rely on statistically unlikely rolls when I could focus on utility/support spells that don't need a roll? By requiring a hit with a Strike and then a hit with a low proficiency, secondary stat spell you basically give up all hopes of reliably landing Spell Strike.
That's pretty much my take on it.
You're pretty much universally better off using a save cantrip cast separately rather than trying to cast it (or even worse-an attack roll cantrip) through your weapon. The exceptions being when you want to trigger a class feature.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because it is free and doesn't use any resources?So we are ignoring that they can use cantrips with the Striking Spell?I think the main question is why you would want to?
Because half of their feats that trigger on Spell Strike/Casting Spells don't do anything with cantrips?
Bespell Strikes, Portal Slide, and School Shroud all only work with non-cantrip spells.
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So we are ignoring that they can use cantrips with the Striking Spell?
I ran calculations-- Cantrips don't do enough to warrant it.
E.g. At level 10, where the rogue gets its third sneak attack die (12 Average of 3d6), Acid Splash (as a standard single target cantrip) is 2d6 + Spell Casting Mod (+4, since its not your key stat) + 2 Acid which averages out to... 14 Average damage.
Which is very marginally better except...
1. The rogue took only action to attack to achieve that damage and can get it on another hit if they hit again, at worst they had to take an action to make the target flat footed, but flanking/gang up etc, should be assumed since its trivial to achieve, so one action. You took Three actions- two to cast acid splash and one to strike. While I don't want to bother to throw MAP on and fully calculate the rogue's average per action that turn, but I don't need to-- it'll be much higher than your 4.6 average per action.
2. My math above takes for granted that the spell attack, a 35% chance to hit against an at-level target with Moderate AC (I did this math using the GMG for the Wizard Wars over in the other forums, and then shaved off 15% to account for your reduced proficiency and intelligence not being your key stat, which comes out to -3 over the wizard i built to test spell attacks) hit, which as this statement makes clear, is not what should be taken for granted.
Basically, it just isn't rewarding, I almost think you might be better off just taking another swing, or definitely be better off pillaging an archetype for a MAP-reducing activity like Double Slice.
Onto recommendations for the problem I've just established exists:
A. Focus spells have a higher damage scaling than cantrips, and are renewable, I haven't calculated how much better because I don't know whats a good focus spell to use as a baseline would be, but it would be closer to worth it, if not actually all the way there-- its just a question of if the numbers play out well. They could also custom design them to use saving throws, which just have a much better effect rate in the first place due to half-damage on miss.
B. Rewrite Striking Spell to work more like Eldritch Shot, where so long as the hits procs, so does the spell, this would be sharp buff to spell attacks being used, and while point 1 heavily suggests it wouldn't be enough. it would still help quite a bit. I'd say make it two seperate features, Spell-Storing (you cast the spell for the normal amount of actions) and then Spell-Striking (One action activity, you make a strike to deliver the spell) because that makes it 3-action friendlier and it would feel super good to pre-store the spell when possible, or use extra actions on the back end of a turn to do so.
C. Both < I think this is actually a very acceptable solution and would honestly balance the class very well-- in this model, your high level slots become precious daily resources used for big attacks (which they are) and the clunkiness of having to roll twice falls away. It'd solve most of the Magus's problems, single-handedly.
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Some of the feats that only trigger on a slot spell are definitely rude, though. There are four of the dang things per day
Focus spells are also non-cantrip spells. So you can usually use those feats at least once per fight even without spell slots.
Of course, this is just another thing that would work much better if there was a direct damage focus spell or two for the Magus.
EDIT: Looks like the post I was responding to was deleted. But anyway, the point still stands.
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Some of the feats that only trigger on a slot spell are definitely rude, though. There are four of the dang things per dayFocus spells are also non-cantrip spells. So you can usually use those feats at least once per fight even without spell slots.
Of course, this is just another thing that would work much better if there was a direct damage focus spell or two for the Magus.
EDIT: Looks like the post I was responding to was deleted. But anyway, the point still stands.
The Magus, as a whole, does come out a lot better when you look at adding in a dedication or archetype.
Fixes the issues with limited spell slots.
Can add damaging focus spells (or healing focus spells).
Can add martial feats to buff up their weapon attacks directly.
Can improve their spell proficiency track somewhat.
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Some of the feats that only trigger on a slot spell are definitely rude, though. There are four of the dang things per dayFocus spells are also non-cantrip spells. So you can usually use those feats at least once per fight even without spell slots.
Of course, this is just another thing that would work much better if there was a direct damage focus spell or two for the Magus.
EDIT: Looks like the post I was responding to was deleted. But anyway, the point still stands.
The Magus, as a whole, does come out a lot better when you look at adding in a dedication or archetype.
Fixes the issues with limited spell slots.
Can add damaging focus spells (or healing focus spells).
Can add martial feats to buff up their weapon attacks directly.
Can improve their spell proficiency track somewhat.
Unfortunately we then are at the point where it's not really a complete design if it needs to spend half its feats on an archetype to be good. In fact, that sounds a lot like an archetype.
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Unfortunately we then are at the point where it's not really a complete design if it needs to spend half its feats on an archetype to be good. In fact, that sounds a lot like an archetype.Some of the feats that only trigger on a slot spell are definitely rude, though. There are four of the dang things per dayFocus spells are also non-cantrip spells. So you can usually use those feats at least once per fight even without spell slots.
Of course, this is just another thing that would work much better if there was a direct damage focus spell or two for the Magus.
EDIT: Looks like the post I was responding to was deleted. But anyway, the point still stands.
The Magus, as a whole, does come out a lot better when you look at adding in a dedication or archetype.
Fixes the issues with limited spell slots.
Can add damaging focus spells (or healing focus spells).
Can add martial feats to buff up their weapon attacks directly.
Can improve their spell proficiency track somewhat.
NGL, if they made an Eldritch Knight mirror to Eldritch Archer with a melee eldritch strike, it would eat this entire classes lunch, while being more versatile by being compatible with more than one tradition and casting style, having more minor magic for flavor because the character who took it would either have a bunch of multiclassing feats or be a full caster, it would be very fun and effective.
Its not impossible for a Magus to justify its existence-- far from it, but I'm not gonna lie, this one just hasn't. Its making me regret that the Magus's legacy in the game demands it. Which given that my first forever class was the 4e swordmage, is tragic, I'm squarely the target audience for this class.
But here we are, unless they're willing to actually cancel a class we're stuck with it, so we've gotta put everything into this to make it worthwhile.
I'm being doom and gloom of course, if they up the striking spell dynamic, and address some other fundamental issues it'll probably work out well enough.
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Unfortunately we then are at the point where it's not really a complete design if it needs to spend half its feats on an archetype to be good. In fact, that sounds a lot like an archetype.Some of the feats that only trigger on a slot spell are definitely rude, though. There are four of the dang things per dayFocus spells are also non-cantrip spells. So you can usually use those feats at least once per fight even without spell slots.
Of course, this is just another thing that would work much better if there was a direct damage focus spell or two for the Magus.
EDIT: Looks like the post I was responding to was deleted. But anyway, the point still stands.
The Magus, as a whole, does come out a lot better when you look at adding in a dedication or archetype.
Fixes the issues with limited spell slots.
Can add damaging focus spells (or healing focus spells).
Can add martial feats to buff up their weapon attacks directly.
Can improve their spell proficiency track somewhat.
Agreed, it just feels like a lot of the Magus balance is done with an eye to keeping Magi with dedications in line. Since Magus does mesh better with archetypes and dedications that other classes.
Contributor
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Unfortunately we then are at the point where it's not really a complete design if it needs to spend half its feats on an archetype to be good. In fact, that sounds a lot like an archetype.NGL, if they made an Eldritch Knight mirror to Eldritch Archer with a melee eldritch strike, it would eat this entire classes lunch, while being more versatile by being compatible with more than one tradition and casting style, having more minor magic for flavor because the character who took it would either have a bunch of multiclassing feats or be a full caster, it would be very fun and effective.
This. All of it.
Up until yesterday I fully expected Magus to appear as an archetype. Just like Cavalier went from full class to the "...on a horse!" archetype, I figured Magus would be the "...but as a spellsword!" archetype.
Eldritch Archer's biggest drawback for me is requiring expert proficiency with bows. It means you either make one with a martial class and subpar casting or you wait until high levels to actually access it. If an "Eldritch Knight" happens, I hope it doesn't require expert anything. Trained in martial, sure. Trained in light armor, fine. Even medium, sure.
If Magus wants to be the "Eldritch Knight" there needs to be some change. More spells, tailored focus spells, better action economy... lots can be done to make a good old fashioned Spellstrike that feels good to use.
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For an attack-roll based spell, it lets you ignore MAP.
Keep in mind that you will have -1/-3 on hit depends your proficiency, if compared to a pure spellcaster.
Then you will be able to see the "advantage" of using a saving throw spell.
Pretty well rounded.
Your save DC is going to be at a similar deficit. Will be interesting to see how often that makes the difference between a save and a crit save.
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Anyway, with 5 cantrips there's enough choice ( even if, as far as I recall, electric arc is the only decent one with a saving throw, apart from daze ).
Chill Touch is decent as well. Even better for damage than Daze. Only against living targets of course and it does target Fort which is often a downside. I'm still somewhat fond of the spell.
Come to think of it, increasing the number of Cantrips to 7-ish for both Magus and Summoner might lessen the blow of their reduced spell slots a bit. Cantrips aren't that amazing, but having more of them at least allows you some flexibility while still covering the basics.
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Its not impossible for a Magus to justify its existence-- far from it, but I'm not gonna lie, this one just hasn't. Its making me regret that the Magus's legacy in the game demands it. Which given that my first forever class was the 4e swordmage, is tragic, I'm squarely the target audience for this class.But here we are, unless they're willing to actually cancel a class we're stuck with it, so we've gotta put everything into this to make it worthwhile.
I'm being doom and gloom of course, if they up the...
Let me introduce you to my friend Gorum and my other friend, two-handed sword. :)
Have you considered a career in smiting and glory hounding?
I feel you, I played the hell out of a sword saint, and this magus archetype isn't cutting it (hehe), but a warpriest just might.
Might. Get it?
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Some of the feats that only trigger on a slot spell are definitely rude, though. There are four of the dang things per dayFocus spells are also non-cantrip spells. So you can usually use those feats at least once per fight even without spell slots.
You're not wrong.
Problem is, the focus spells the magus gets do not do damage. They're all self-buffs. One of them is frigging amazing (Haste for a minute) but none of them are spells you can use with Spellstrike.Sure you can use them to trigger some those other feats, like Spell shroud. But that's not really worth writing home about.
Cascading Ray, Healer's Steel, Portal Slide, and Comet Spell all don't work with the Magus's available focus spells.
Anyway, with 5 cantrips there's enough choice ( even if, as far as I recall, electric arc is the only decent one with a saving throw, apart from daze ).Chill Touch is decent as well. Even better for damage than Daze. Only against living targets of course and it does target Fort which is often a downside. I'm still somewhat fond of the spell.
Come to think of it, increasing the number of Cantrips to 7-ish for both Magus and Summoner might lessen the blow of their reduced spell slots a bit. Cantrips aren't that amazing, but having more of them at least allows you some flexibility while still covering the basics.
There's a feat for that, and it's only really competing with Hammerspace-Quickdraw (unless anyone really wants a Familiar with no bond drain, I guess?)
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Come to think of it, increasing the number of Cantrips to 7-ish for both Magus and Summoner might lessen the blow of their reduced spell slots a bit. Cantrips aren't that amazing, but having more of them at least allows you some flexibility while still covering the basics.There's a feat for that, and it's only really competing with Hammerspace-Quickdraw (unless anyone really wants a Familiar with no bond drain, I guess?)
There's also a feats that increase the number of spell slots. That doesn't mean the base number is fine.
Also, seeing how a Familiar can grant a Magus an additional cantrip and later increase his number of spell slots by 25%, I'd definitely get the Familiar over Cantrip Expansion.
So, any nominations for a focus spell with single target damage scaling to use as an example in theorizing what they should look like?
Lay on Hand but with any element of your choosing as you cast it ?
So, any nominations for a focus spell with single target damage scaling to use as an example in theorizing what they should look like?
I feel like it should be the middle point between a Wizard's Force Bolt and a Sorcerer's Elemental Toss, so probably something like 1d6/level.
Magus needs something like Elemental Toss (1 action damage focus spell from Elemental Sorcerer) as a bandaid for the 3 action stumbles.
Hand of the Apprentice. Another reason to multiclass wizard. ;)
1d6 per level seems to be the standard scaling if there's extra effects Some spells can achieve better if they're spell attacks. and elemental toss is a d8 for one action, so its actually kind of all over the place. It almost feels like a focus spell with no rider, spell attack, could easily be a d10-- if not a d12, it would still have less than half the average of a level 1 shocking grasp (1d10 vs. 2d12 + persistent) I'll keep it conservative and stick with 1d10 focus spells.
So we're talking "Magus Fire" which is a single target spell with d10s that does fire damage, casts with two actions, because eh, its just an example-- it has no other riders.
At level 10 you'd be rolling 5d10 on your Striking Spell when the rogue gets their third sneak attack die. Dealing about 30 damage on average with the spell portion of your strike. Much more than what we established the rogue as doing earlier with the sneak attack portion (which is just 12 extra,) but thats to be expected, the Magus just did that by consuming a resource (a focus point, not a crazy one but its still a limitation) and three actions. (Incidentally the average is 35 if Magus Fire
Once you factor in the second strike for the rogue, you have to add the base weapon damage to the calculation because the rogue can get it a second time, as I mentioned earlier, you still have to account for MAP. But on average the rogue will all but catch up just by using their all day every day combat loop while you consume a focus point.
Now, you'll notice I'm not factoring in the miss chance of the spell portion of striking spell, that's because you only have a 35% chance to hit, that kind of miss chance is a non starter, on average you'd fall waaaaay behind the rogue in this situation, even blowing your focus points and regular spell slots like candy.
But if we make Striking Spell work like Eldritch Shot (Spell uses the success of the strike), AND grant us focus spells to use that have high dice values, THEN the Magus can be competitive.
Now granted, with the way the scaling is set up, you'd pull a little further ahead as levels increase I think, the more dice you roll, the more higher dice is weighted. But since the rogue still isn't consuming a resource, and you are, and the rogue can do it more times in a combat, I don't think its actually unbalanced. Either way, it'd be trivial to correct by dropping back down to a d8 for our theoretical Magus Fire-- though really, it probably doesn't need it.
Hand of the Apprentice. Another reason to multiclass wizard. ;)
Sadly, you can't grab Hand of the Apprentice since there seems to be no way for a non-wizard to be a Universalist. Force Bolt is decent enough though, especially since it gets to bypass the Magus' weak spell rolls/DC. In my opition, it's a bit worrying how much benefit a Magus gets from multiclassing into Wizard.
Magus needs something like Elemental Toss (1 action damage focus spell from Elemental Sorcerer) as a bandaid for the 3 action stumbles.Hand of the Apprentice. Another reason to multiclass wizard. ;)
Sadly you cannot get it by multiclassing I think. (By RAW at least)
Sadly you cannot get it by multiclassing I think. (By RAW at least)Magus needs something like Elemental Toss (1 action damage focus spell from Elemental Sorcerer) as a bandaid for the 3 action stumbles.Hand of the Apprentice. Another reason to multiclass wizard. ;)
Universal is one of the options under Arcane School. There has been a debate on this and at least 1 thread dedicated to it so I don't think rehashing it here does much. So I'll say, if you can take it, it's a good Focus spell.
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Such a damaging Fccus spell could easily have flexible action cost. Like 1d6 per level for 1 action or 1d10 per level for two actions or something like that. Would allow for even more action flexibility. Also gives a two-handed Magus to open the fight with a bang (Stride > Striking Spell > Strike) which is otherwise hard to do because you have to get to the enemy somehow.