Using Scroll as Prerequisite for Wands

[NobleCricket]

Can a PC with the Craft Wand feature craft a wand that is not on his spell list using a Scroll? It states in Magic Item Creation that:

"Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

But not two sentences later it also says:

"In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites."

So I'm unsure of which one to follow. My player nature wants to use a scroll and craft wands well out of his league while my analytical nature says that the PC NEEDS to know and/or prepare the spell. Anyone have some thoughts on settling this for me?

This may have been re-hashed in another thread but I could not find anything too definitive regarding this. I just want to have some answers before I speak with my GM or group. I may have wasted a feat but I can retrain that on another date.

[OmniMage]

I don't know all the small details for what you're asking, but I think I can clear some things up.

If you don't like my answer, you can search the FAQs yourself.
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm

The item types (for which these rules apply) are scrolls (spell completion), potions (potions), wands (spell-trigger), and staves (spell-trigger). You can't make magic items for casting spells you can't cast yourself. However, the source of the spell can vary. You can provide those spells yourself, you can get an assistant who can cast the spells for you, or you can use scrolls. You need to be able to have the spells cast every day you craft.

Game balance wise, this limitation helps to enforce the restrictions for spells known. With these rules, a wizard isn't going to be craft a scroll for a wizard spell they don't know, nor can they craft scrolls for spells that don't appear on their spell list.

Other types of magic items, such as wondrous items, are fair game. You can ignore needing spells and other prerequisites by suffering a +5 DC for each prerequisite you ignore (you still can't ignore the magic item crafting feats). Most of those items don't mimic spells exactly, so you can improvise a little.

As for retraining feats, I don't think you should be stuck with a feat you never used. I would argue that you should be able replace it for free.

[Sandslice]

NobleCricket wrote:

Can a PC with the Craft Wand feature craft a wand that is not on his spell list using a Scroll?

Yes, because you can enlist outside help including from items. You need to use magic device to trigger the scroll, though. This is actually in the CRB FAQ:

Quote:

Crafting and Spell Requirements: When crafting an item, can an arcane caster use a divine scroll to fulfill an item's divine spell requirement?

Yes. (Likewise, a divine caster could use an arcane scroll to fulfill an item's arcane spell requirement.)
However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process. This probably requires the arcane caster to succeed at a Use Magic Device check to activate the divine spell. If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll).

Note also that unless certain shenanigans (such as Razmiran Priest) are in play, using the scroll destroys it; so you will need one for each day of crafting, which could become prohibitive.

[Mysterious Stranger]

If you are a prepared arcane caster you could simply learn the spell from the scroll. Prepared divine casters usually have access to all the spells on their list. This leads me to believe you are a spontaneous caster. If that is the case you could use a Mnemonic vestment to use a scroll without using it up. This should allow you to create wands from a scroll. Since it does not use up the scroll you can use the same scroll as much as you want.

[Sandslice]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If you are a prepared arcane caster you could simply learn the spell from the scroll. Prepared divine casters usually have access to all the spells on their list. This leads me to believe you are a spontaneous caster. If that is the case you could use a Mnemonic vestment to use a scroll without using it up. This should allow you to create wands from a scroll. Since it does not use up the scroll you can use the same scroll as much as you want.

From what OP is saying, they literally couldn't learn the spell under typical circumstances, since they're departing from their spell list.

[Diego Rossi]

While it is not mandatory for normal play, I would suggest to use the Society rules, where a spell is taken from the wizard, cleric, and druid spell lists unless it is available only to specific classes.

Essentially, even if a Bard or a Paladin or any other class gets the spell at a lower level, the wand, stave, scroll, or potion will be based on the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard version.
That way we avoid Summoner wands of Haste with a spell level of 2, Summoner potions of Improved invisibility, and other similar items.

The Summoner list in particular has something like 50% of its spells at a lower level, making some spell not normally available for potions or wands accessible.

[Meirril]

NobleCricket wrote:

So I'm unsure of which one to follow. My player nature wants to use a scroll and craft wands well out of his league while my analytical nature says that the PC NEEDS to know and/or prepare the spell. Anyone have some thoughts on settling this for me?

Technically speaking, so long as the character has access to 1 use of the spell in question per day of crafting everything is fine. Items are a valid source.

That said, it means consuming 1 use per day. If the scroll needs to be UMD'ed then flubbing the roll could waste a day of crafting.

Also remember that Wands are limited to 4th level spells or lower. I'm not sure how anyone that can craft wands is trying to make something "far out of reach". 4th levels spells aren't really better than 3rd level.

Oh, and the other limitation the crafter will be stuck with is the wand won't be able to exceed the caster level of the scrolls used. Normally this means the Wand will be the minimum caster level, since most scrolls (and other items) are made at the minimum level. Items are generally made at minimum caster level anyways but sometimes you want to exceed that (like with a Magic Missile wand).