Hello,
I'm very excited about trying a melee harm build in an upcoming game. It might not be the best build ever, but there's something inherently satisfying about putting your hand on the chest of someone and shrivel his skin and eat his liver and... hum. Yeah. Anywayyyy...
This character has to be able to melee, and I don't want to use divine smite:
- Because it's less thematically fun for me to smite someone than to burst his skin open then strike
- Because I'm pretty unlucky with dices and I don't want to put all my eggs in the same dice roll.
- Because harm as a spell can benefit from harming hands (and dangerous sorcery, though I won't go that way).
- Because a successful save from the opponent is still half damage.
- Because Cast Down
- Because it's fun to make someone scream while you rip their heart from their chest. Wait, I already said that.
Most full rounds would be either:
1) Regular
Demoralize, Strike, Raise Shield or Strike, Strike, Raise Shield
2) Regular burst
Cast Down, Harm, Strike
3) Full burst
Harm, Harm, Strike
4) Prudent burst
Harm, Strike, Raise Shield
5) Spellcasting
Harm + spell or Strike + spell or Raise Shield + Spell.
Well, nothing new there. But now here's my question. I need to be at least average at hitting stuff (else the Strike part is useless) and at least average at using Harm (else everybody will resist).
So.
Most guides say that a melee harm build should be a warpriest, but isn't it more efficient going the Cloistered Cleric route (with a champion dedication of course) ?
The build would be like:
Race: Human
Ancestry: Versatile heritage for Shield Block
Human Feat: Natural Ambition
Class: Cloistered Cleric
STR 16
DEX 12
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 14
(Raises in STR, CON, WIS, CHA).
First few Feats
Human: Harming Hands
2: Champion Dedication
4: Versatile Channeling
6: Cast Down
8: Channelled Succor (for being a team player)
Levels 1 through 7 will be no different from a warpriest, except I'll have a domain spell and he'll be able to take versatile channeling 2 levels earlier and/or take a different dedication.
Levels 8 through 10 will be tough, trained proficiency in my weapon means I'll have to rely much more on my spellcasting. But that's ok since I'll have expert proficiency in it.
Levels 11 and higher, with full plate, a sturdy shield and expert proficiency, it seems to me I'll be ahead in every domain.
So what did I get wrong ? Most guides I've seen recommend to go Warpriest for a melee harm build. What's the point and what would I lose by going cloistered cleric instead of warpriest ?
Thanks and sorry for the wall of text ^^
Warpriest and Cloistered will give you similar results. Warpriest is better at low levels, Cloistered at high levels.
Also, your full rounds are all forgetting one important action: Stride/Step. Most rounds, you'll need to move to either get to the enemy, get to a new enemy after the death of the previous one or move to flanking position. So, your basic round will be Stride/Step + 2 actions.
I would not use a shield. It costs you an action that you don't have. And you need a d12 weapon, otherwise your attacks will be laughable.
I wouldn't take neither Versatile Channeling nor Channelled Succor. You will need a lot of feats to be efficient and these ones are half useless (just prepare Heal in your slots).
As a side note, with Warpriest you can go Sentinel instead of Champion Dedication.
Of Note, Warpriest does have better fortitude save which does matter in melee.
Though seeing the flavor you are going for, if your team/DM is okay with that, go all in Cloistered + evil Champion to grab the evil Lay on Hand as a focus (so usable every fight), and be a dhampir to heal yourself with negative energy.
Also look at just a normal Evil Champion :p
|
I would Ulfen Human Cloistered Cleric/ Paladin of Vildeis.
Ulfen grants access to Viking Shielbearer, which gives you Shield Block and training with the longsword.
Vildeis for Versatile Channeling, but some Neutral deities could work.
If your party members have a alternqtive source of healing, you could go Dhampir and forget Versatile Channeling altogether. You could also get the Lay on Hands feat for this purpose.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With 10 Con you're dead.
That is unless you or another caster uses actions & a spell to Heal/Soothe you, meaning ultimately you're a drain on resources who's not fulfilling your dream imagery of being the harmer rather than the harmed.
A Cleric's Strike, at its best, is about worth a martial's second Strike (partly due to proficiency falling behind, and much due to martials getting damage bonuses). It worsens as you level up. And being melee competent takes a lot of investment for a PC who requires Wis & Cha too.
Harm Cleric, doable (even if I think Heal's more game-changing).
Strike Cleric, workable even if I suspect the payoff's dubious.
Harm & Strike Cleric, untenable to juggle both offensively.
The exception might be if you're focusing on Cast Down & low-level Harms to just get targets prone. Doing so on behalf of other party members better built to take advantage of that could be the better route.
Another possible exception is ranged combat, where adding in an occasional Strike won't amplify your risk so much. Not sure why your PC "has to be able to melee", but if it's because of a lack of melee in the group then your build's extra screwed. If it's because you want the action economy of a zero range Harm, you may need to rethink (as well as beware burning out your slots too swiftly to compete with martials).
Scratch all this if campaign's low threat or only playing at low levels.
With 10 Con you're dead.
That is unless you or another caster uses actions & a spell to Heal/Soothe you, meaning ultimately you're a drain on resources who's not fulfilling your dream imagery of being the harmer rather than the harmed.
Well, I have 10 Con at level 1, but at level 2 I get the best AC for this level, on par with a shield fighter or a shield champion - plus shield block, since I'm not starved for reaction like those two are. So I would say that I'm actually sturdier than most at low level.
That's the reason why, although someone in this thread advertises two-handed weapon, I'm sticking with my shield. Less chance to get hit, less chance to get crit, and a reaction to avoid some damage.
Sure, dedicated tanks will pull ahead in the next levels, but not that fast - and I'll have more defense than a dps build. Especially since my CON will raise at level 5 and 10. Toughness can help too.
Also, healing myself is a single action instead of a double one so, from an optimizing perspective, I'd rather they hit me than the dps. Those'll get hit more easily, and they'll need more resource to get better.
A Cleric's Strike, at its best, is about worth a martial's second Strike (partly due to proficiency falling behind, and much due to martials getting damage bonuses). It worsens as you level up. And being melee competent takes a lot of investment for a PC who requires Wis & Cha too.
How so ? I'm not saying it's wrong, I actually posted this to see if it's doable or not, so I'm ready to hear your side of the argument.
But from what I'm seeing, I'm 1 point behind (because of 16 STR) from levels 1-5. Levels 6-10, I'm 2 points behind (reaching 18 STR but not expert yet) which is annoying, but then I'm a full caster with expert spellcasting so what do you expect ? Also, if I can prebuff (and since it's a 10mn spell, it's often doable), Heroism reduces the gap to 1 point. I'll probably not be selfish and give it to more powerful martials instead of me, but that's beside the point.
Level 11, I'm now expert and heroism gives a +2, so I'm on par with everyone but the fighter unbuffed, and I'm at fighter level if buffed.
Level 13, most classes pull ahead by +2 - and i'll probably buff them but still, I could give myself the same attack bonus they have. Also, let's not forget about cast down, which is a nice way to make someone lose an action and gives flat-footed.
So of course, as a full-fledged caster, I don't expect to perform as well as a martial, but it seems to me I'm not that far behind - especially since I only plan to hit once a turn and don't suffer from MAP - while being as sturdy or sturdier than non-shield users.
What those characters have against me is not accuracy, but damage. That's true, there's no denying it: Cleric is no dps class and has no built-in damage bonus. A two-weapon fighter, a two-handed barbarian, a swashbuckler with a finisher, a rogue flanking will all have bigger damage, what with weapon specialization.
But that's the point of this build, isn't it ? I mean, apart from the fun roleplaying aspects, harm allows me to reduce the gap somewhat.
At level 5, I have 4 extra harm per day (using my other slots for heal and helpful spells to my friends). Four times a day, I can go Harm/Strike. With the same +1 striking rune on my longsword, that's 2d8+4 on my regular strike and 3d10 on my harm. Not too shabby, especially since harm does half damage on a successful save. And if s$~@ really hits the fan, I can go harm/harm/strike for another 3d10 damage.
You'll tell me I can't do this all day, and that's true - especially at level 5. But then again, I'm also a full caster with full wisdom and full proficiency who will eventually raise dead, give air walk or freedom of movement, circle of protection, restauration and all those nifty spells everyone needs at one point or another.
At level 11, my best harm will do 6d10 and I'll have boatloads of them on regular slots, while still keeping some utility.
So, yeah, I'm here to be schooled and I'm really open to my build being garbage, but providing some facts would help me see it instead of just telling me that's how it is ^^
Having a high AC is great, as is having a shield w/ Shield Block, but PF2 monsters, even minions, will hit you. Your Cleric's effectively wounded for having fewer h.p. (+8 h.p. per level while most melee martials will have +12 w/ 14 Con or significantly better skirmishing abilities/mobility). So there's less leeway for the odd hit or two. That's a gamble that only has to swing poorly once.
Add in swarms, AoEs, Trample, Grab/Constrict, and so forth. It's a jungle in the front w/ even armored martials taking a beating.
As for offense, all the martial classes have some offensive boon, whether a Fighter's higher proficiency, Sneak Attack, Rage, etc. Those make a significant difference (about +1/3 to +1/2x extra damage) and that's before factoring in the debuffs & action economy their feats/abilities contribute.
Yet it's later where the difference really kicks in w/ Weapon Specialization and the Cleric's proficiency dropping behind. Flurry Ranger has a -3 MAP and a +2 Proficiency advantage most levels from 5th on for the easiest example of why the Cleric's Strike is only about equal to their second Strike. (The Cleric has a +1 attack advantage 5th-9th vs. the Ranger's 2nd attack, but arguably the Ranger might have an Animal Companion or other boost too.)
Yes, Heroism can close the gap, and I suspect Paizo very much factored that & other buffs into game balance. Except those 10 minutes often translate to one battle unless the first one's easy or the monsters converge (gulp). That's because Treat Wounds and Refocusing will burn up that duration. And 3rd levels slots aren't cheap. That's a Sarenrae Fireball you're not casting (and that Fireball would likely contribute more damage in one round than Heroism does for you all battle.)
Or there's the Nethys 3rd level Magic Missile for 21 auto-damage even vs. the boss a Cleric would struggle to hit for 2d8+4 (?). And there's Vampiric Touch for the imagery you're going for plus a bit of durability.
Note I'm not saying you can't build a reasonable Strike w/ a Cleric, it's just that Strike doesn't necessarily pay off for the investment and comes w/ a significant gamble if you're in melee, and that's only compounded by having a 10 Con. The difference isn't so egregious at low levels because of the Ancestry bump to h.p. and proficiencies/specializations/feats haven't kicked in as much.
I'm pretty sure Paizo balanced PF2 so that spell casters can only get Strikes as good as secondary attacks because casters can launch a spell in the same round. The exception being when the two are combined via a feat.
If you are planning on wielding a big 2H d12 weapon, or using 1H + real Shield, and casting Heal/Harm in combat, you definitely want the Emblazon Armament Feat (Cleric 2). It does give a side bonus to Shield Hardness or Weapon damage, but the reason you really want it is Heal/Harm normally require a free hand for Material Components or Divine Focus substitution, which is incompatible (or very awkward) if you plan on using 2H weapon or 1H weapon + Shield.
I'm of the mind that Warpriest should really get Emblazon Armament for free, as currently Cloistered Cleric gets Cleric Class Feat for free (Domain Initiate) while Warpriest only gets General Feat (Shield Block). Shield Block isn't even relevant if you use 2H weapon or otherwise don't use Shield... If getting both is considered "too much", I'd rather see free Shield Block dropped, since it's easy to take normally and Raise Shield can be used without it. Emblazon Armament is Level 2 compared to Domain Initiate's Level 1, but those are functionally the same outside of Human bonus Feat, and other sub-classes also grant free Feats before their normal level.
Heal/Harm + Strike(s) is such a core Warpriest schtick that Emblazon Armament is really a Feat Tax for them currently (and benefits of 2H weapon or Shield is IMHO core assumption of Warpriest balance). Getting it for free would help Warpriests be more clearly distinguished from Cloistereds, and they could even delve in combat Archetypes from Level 2 while not giving up on Emblazon and Heal/Harm+Strike tactics.
The OP's concept really sounds more like Cloistered than Warpriest though, if they want focus on Heal/Harm spells they will prefer Cloistered's Spell DC advantage, and probably thematically would like the Domain Initiate Focus spell etc. Cloistered weapon proficiency is narrower and trails by a few levels, but ultimately will have same proficiency in Deity's Favored Weapon... so if that's a strong weapon you'd like to use, that isn't major problem.
While Warpriest gives you built-in Expert scaling Medium Armor, it's fairly easy for Cloistered to acquire the same or better, between bonus General Feats from Ancestry, and Archetypes like Sentinel or Champion. While Medium Armor ultimately doesn't offer AC benefit over Unarmored, it lets you reach that AC cap sooner as well as moving stat boosts from DEX to STR so weapon attacks do more damage. Medium along with Heavy also will allow Fortification Runes (negating % of Crits VS you) which is significant aid to melee resilience. Heavy Armor's +1 AC advantage (at same proficiency) is the superior option (also allowing even less DEX, and more STR), but that relates to how Cloistered can undercut Warpriest's advantage: if both Warpriest and Cloistered want Expert Heavy Armor +1 AC they will need the same amount of Feats, removing Warpriest's relative advantage in armor. Already having Medium does mean Warpriest has more options (Hellknight, Lastwall Archetypes which have other mechanical benefits), but the # of Feats for Expert Heavy is the same.
The only Heal/Harm that needs Emblazoned Armament is the AoE version, which arguably is not the bread-n'-butter version Warpriests mainly use (not if they're Striking).
I was mixing the action versions a bit, but even if it's not on the same turn, I think it's a major action economy killer to regrip a 2H weapon if you dropped a hand the previous turn to cast AoE Heal/Harm (or any other Material/Focus spell), and Warpriest really needs efficiency there to be effective, since they don't generally get other combat action economy boosts. Sword+Board Warpriest is really the most impacted by casting Material/Focus spell without Emblazon, needing to fully drop weapon or spend action to re-sheathe it
I still think Emblazon would be better free Feat for Warpriests that returns parity in Class Feats VS Cloistereds, especially considering Shield Block is wasted if they want to use Deity's Favored (or any) 2H Weapon. Getting Emblazon for free helps distinguish them more from Cloistereds in combat area, even if Cloistered tries to eat their lunch by grabbing Sentinel/Champion Archetype (Shield Block itself easily attained).
Anyways, a bit off topic now from some simple build advice... ;-)
Warpriest don't get just shield block (1 general feat), they get light and medium armor proficiency (2 general feat or 1 lvl 2 dedication), expert fortitude (1 general feat), and deadly simplicity (1 class feat, of limited use).
Cloistered get 1 domain (1 class feat),of very variable usefulness.
From lvl 1 to 6 Warpriest is strictly better than a Cloistered Cleric mechanically speaking. They might need Emblazon for free, but not to be on par with Cloistered Clerics.