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You could also detain the mirror duplicate, and try to convince them to let the captured ally out?
It says they prefer not to, but a diplomacy or intimidate check could conceivably convince them, especially if the alternative is death.
Depends. This seems like something a wish or miracle could get them out of. How readily do the PCs have access to someone with that kind of ability, and how much are they willing to pay for it? Probably not in money, but in favors, loyalty, and the like.
Personally, I'd point out the possibility and see what the other PCs come up with for who to go to, then think what that person would want. There are certainly high enough level people in Absalom...
Also, reading through the Hazard, I'd probably allow a PC on the other side who avoids being captured or killed to to try to get back through. I'd probably make it the same check as to disable the Hazard (or a use of plane shift, perhaps, if they have it), and might have it do something really weird if the mirror back in the 'real world' has been destroyed, but it seems possible.
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I'm reading ahead to prepare for my players eventually getting to this book. I'm a bit confused about the Blackfingers Temple. When was this built? Is it supposed to be new?
The old 1st edition "Guide to Absalom" book says:
his priests and worshipers hide their identities in Absalom as carefully as they would anywhere else, and the Graycloaks keep a close eye on the Black Mask any night it seems to be more active than usual.
which implies that there is no official temple, just this one costume shop that is used as a front for a secret temple.
Should I assume that this is now being retconned and open Norborger worship was always a thing or is it better to say that something changed in the intervening time and his worshippers stopped hiding so much and eventually even built a normal temple out in the open?
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It does raise some interesting questions. A large temple dedicated to the God of murder, assassination and thievery with people regularly going in to worship. Even in a city of religious tolerance, surely some questions should be asked.
Do the Watch have an open file on the temple? Do need a warrant to enter (presumably). What precautions does the city place to ensure there isn't actual murder or paid for assassinations happening in the temple?
It suggests they have some high level political cover, even with the libertarian attitude of the city laws.
There is also a bit about religion in Absalom in the Players' Guide:
With the city’s patron god now vanished, other major human religions have risen to fill the vacuum. Chief among these creeds are those of the Ascended—Cayden Cailean, Iomedae (herself Aroden’s former herald), and Norgorber—the gods who, having bested the Test of the Starstone, rose to divinity right in the spiritual heart of Absalom.
It may come as a surprise that worship of evil gods such as Norgorber (and even Zon-Kuthon or Rovagug) is legal within Absalom. Freedom of religion is a cornerstone of Absalom’s body of law, but believers are still beholden to the city’s many other laws and cannot perform illegal activities as part of religious rites. This means that while zealots of evil gods can congregate and proselytize, Norgorberites can no more practice wanton theft than Kuthites can torture the unwilling.
It heavily implies that worshipping Norgorber is currently one of the most prominent religions in the city.
And there's some more info about the temple in Flakfatter's bio:
He used his grandfather’s connections to establish himself in alchemical circles all around the city, and he set his sights on one of the most informative, if dubious, alchemical conferences in Absalom: the Noxious Retort. The Noxious Retort was held annually at the Ascendant Court’s temple to Norgorber’s poisonous Blackfingers aspect. By Flakfatter’s fourth year in attendance, the temple’s current high priest, Canby Hubbard, had taken a personal interest in the young
man.
So presumably the conference has been going on for a lot more than four years and quite obviously the temple that holds it must have been built for at least the same amount of time.
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I think it's a public temple, but most worshipers take means to obscure their identities when attending. It seems like they also only partake in the highly-illegal activities tied to Norgorber in other places like the dungeon Flakfatter is hiding out in.
I still think it must be a fairly open secret that the temple acts as a sort of Assassin's Guild - with paid for murders being arranged and carried out by followers of the temple.
It might be that this is known about, and they have high level political cover. (This raises significant questions about people's trust in public institutions though. It's basically open corruption on a grand scale, with a literal church of crime being tolerated. How could anyone trust the Watch if they haven't put a stop to it?). Or it might be you have situation like Sinn Féin / IRA where the temple's public claim is that it is a 3rd party religious/political organisation, and "is in contact with assassins but doesn't carry out assassinations themselves", hence providing legitimacy that the temple is a law-abiding institution, just with certain beliefs that ally themselves with those outside the law.
I can't see a scenario where you have all these people who - in their heart of hearts - have dedicated themselves to the god of murder, yet claim to be just cosplaying and blowing off steam in their daily rituals. No one would believe that, and the very claim also undermines the seriousness of the church. "Yeah, you other religions get to actively practice what you believe in, but we just talk about it". If that was what the public believed, then Norgorber would be a joke.
Note that I'm not talking about what actually happens in the temple. (we know that from the books; they are killing people), but rather what the temple publically claims, and how the general public view such a organisation.
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There's a strong emphasis in the setting that this is a temple of Blackfingers not Norgorber.
I framed it that these people stress forward that they worship the god of alchemy and poisons, and that the scientific advances they made were pivotal in the fiendflesh siege. They vigorously deny any wrongdoing and always stipulate that they obey the law to the letter, and do not associate with skinsaw men or any of the other ''distasteful'' cultists of Norgorber.
Any mention that they worshipped the god of murder to one of the priest would have them vigorously crying out at religious discrimination.
There's a strong emphasis in the setting that this is a temple of Blackfingers not Norgorber.
I like this explanation best. It's easy to see how worshipping the Skinsaw aspect of Norgorber in public would be a huge deal. But worshipping "the god of alchemists and poisoners" seems way less scandalous, especially if you focus more on the alchemists part.
There's a strong emphasis in the setting that this is a temple of Blackfingers not Norgorber.I like this explanation best. It's easy to see how worshipping the Skinsaw aspect of Norgorber in public would be a huge deal. But worshipping "the god of alchemists and poisoners" seems way less scandalous, especially if you focus more on the alchemists part.
This also explains why Flakflatter can be a public figure. He is one of the cities leading alchemists, and an expert in poison. That's all. And of course, clerics of Norgorber don't even have to be evil, as the church will point out (not that there should be anything illegal about detecting as evil. What goes on in a man's mind is his own business, says the church).
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There's a strong emphasis in the setting that this is a temple of Blackfingers not Norgorber.I like this explanation best. It's easy to see how worshipping the Skinsaw aspect of Norgorber in public would be a huge deal. But worshipping "the god of alchemists and poisoners" seems way less scandalous, especially if you focus more on the alchemists part.
Yeah basically just channel your inner fox news anchor if the subject comes up.
''How dare the government come into OUR perfectly legal house of worship and IMPOSE their beliefs on our CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to assemble in worship and in the pursuit of science! HOW DARE YOU AGENTS! All of this happening while [insert conspiracy theory] is running rampant!''
The politics of this should be hilarious for you and maddening for the PC's to make them feel it ^^
There is also this bit in the beginning of chapter 1 which I had not noticed before that goes a long way to put this question into perspective:
Flakfatter walks a very careful line: his temple to Blackfingers is legal within Absalom as a valid religious structure. It isn’t against the law to operate the church nor to attend worship there. In fact, Flakfatter’s congregation includes a number of prominent alchemists in Absalom, and they’ve made noteworthy contributions to their fields of study. While no laws make venerating Blackfingers illegal, the same can’t be said for the acts that the church encourages: making and using poisons, performing unethical experiments, and breeding and releasing monstrous creatures.
In public, Flakfatter and the members of his temple eschew these practices and insist that they fully comply with the law. Few believe this claim, but the high priest is too clever to let any proof materialize.
Basically it's more or less what we've been discussing.
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Has anyone noticed that Grabble Forden (p. 45) can make his ranged attack as a free action? Even his Drain Bonded Item and Poison Conversion abilities are labeled as free actions. Is that a typo of some sort or is that exactly as intended?
It's cost is one action and your reaction for a +1 to 4 bonus, maximum +3 for most classes. Maybe the DC 20 check is to encourage people to use aid more often. It's still a lot to ask to have a player give up an action and their reaction to provide Aid for another character.
I started this module. I read that A1 room in the opening. I was wondering how the PCs were supposed to enter? It says the main doors are blocked by rubble. It says the northwest doors are blocked by collapsed rubble. The only way I see into the Sanctuary of Prescience is through the secret doors in the back, which would cause the PCs to run into the Ankou before the fight in A1.
On a side note, a couple of Leukodaemons and 3 poisoners against a lvl 12 party is not much of a challenge. Even throwing in the six poisoners from the rafters, the challenge isn't very strong. By lvl 12 if you don't have casters backing you up, then you're not going to last long. The poisoners have no caster backup. The PC casters easily controlled the battle with healing, AoE, and control spells.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I started this module. I read that A1 room in the opening. I was wondering how the PCs were supposed to enter? It says the main doors are blocked by rubble. It says the northwest doors are blocked by collapsed rubble. The only way I see into the Sanctuary of Prescience is through the secret doors in the back, which would cause the PCs to run into the Ankou before the fight in A1.
On a side note, a couple of Leukodaemons and 3 poisoners against a lvl 12 party is not much of a challenge. Even throwing in the six poisoners from the rafters, the challenge isn't very strong. By lvl 12 if you don't have casters backing you up, then you're not going to last long. The poisoners have no caster backup. The PC casters easily controlled the battle with healing, AoE, and control spells.
I believe the front door collapses after the PCs enter, as part of the “opening with a bang” read aloud text.
So they’d come in through the front door, the front of the church collapses during the attack, and the PCs have to find a new way out through areas A3 & A4.
As to the encounter, yeah, it feels underwhelming. I ended up skipping this entire area, but if I were to run it, I’d probably jack up the number of reinforcements pretty significantly.
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I started this module. I read that A1 room in the opening. I was wondering how the PCs were supposed to enter? It says the main doors are blocked by rubble. It says the northwest doors are blocked by collapsed rubble. The only way I see into the Sanctuary of Prescience is through the secret doors in the back, which would cause the PCs to run into the Ankou before the fight in A1.
On a side note, a couple of Leukodaemons and 3 poisoners against a lvl 12 party is not much of a challenge. Even throwing in the six poisoners from the rafters, the challenge isn't very strong. By lvl 12 if you don't have casters backing you up, then you're not going to last long. The poisoners have no caster backup. The PC casters easily controlled the battle with healing, AoE, and control spells.
As to the encounter, yeah, it feels underwhelming. I ended up skipping this entire area, but if I were to run it, I’d probably jack up the number of reinforcements pretty significantly.I believe the front door collapses after the PCs enter, as part of the “opening with a bang” read aloud text.
So they’d come in through the front door, the front of the church collapses during the attack, and the PCs have to find a new way out through areas A3 & A4.
I see now. It's in the initial descriptive text you read to the players. I usually read that last after I read the encounter. It collapses after they are in.
I had all 9 poisoners and 2 leukodaemons come down at once. I had Thraskul alive a poisoner and made it a game of keep the informant alive. The Leukodaemon's brought Thraskul to stage 5 Daemonic Pestilence, but they managed to keep Thraskul alive. Now he will be in protective custody with them at the lodge once they capture Flakfatter.
I still can't believe they had him shot with a crossbow bolt and not a single enemy present had a crossbow on them. Sometimes the Paizo editors miss something key. But it's an easy fix so I won't complain too much. The base module has a lot of good inspirational material for a DM. The Edgewatch series has been my favorite new AP by far. It is a very inspired AP with lots of interesting plots, role-playing, characters, and overall adventure path. It feels like a throwback to the Rise of the Runelords AP. Very dark, twisted, deep, and interesting.
Our party easily acquired the information concerning the lower temple to Blackfingers by keeping Thraskul alive.
The faceman sorcerer with all the social skill and medical trained witch went in under the cover of visiting the Noxious Retort for medical purposes. Quickly made their way back to the altar room area, opened the area with a secret, studied the room at the bottom of the staircase, left the Noxious Retort and teleported into the lower temple.
Pretty easy for a lvl 12 group.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I've been requiring players to spend a week or two of downtime to get access to uncommon spells and such.
They're 20th level now, in book 6, and still nobody has bothered to learn teleport.
I'm actually pretty jazzed about it.
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The Stabbing Beast was a nasty fight. Very tough as it should be for an avatar of a God. So far this module has been quite fun.
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I envision Jonis Flakfatter as giving himself up because the agents killed all his protection. He knows the other Twilight Four conspirators intend to end him. Since the agents have carved a path into his sanctum killing all his people, he might as well put himself in the care of the agents so they can protect him. Now they are responsible for keeping him alive as he uses the system to protect himself from retaliation from the other Twilight Four.
I plan to get rid of The Rabbit Prince and insert Hendrid Pratchett as a returned revenant sent by Norgorber to take vengeance on those that slew him. He plans to lead them around the carnival to kill them as the other creatures wear them down.
What is Jonis supposed to say to the agents if they interrogate him and he's willing to cooperate? Is that explained somewhere in the book? Seems like he knows too much and if he turns that could completely spoil the surprise at the end of this book.
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What is Jonis supposed to say to the agents if they interrogate him and he's willing to cooperate? Is that explained somewhere in the book? Seems like he knows too much and if he turns that could completely spoil the surprise at the end of this book.
I think he's supposed to die myself. The module designer sent a lot of powerful stuff to kill him including death itself. But we'll see. If the players keep him alive through the 72 hours following his capture, well, I'll think about how that gets handled.
I think even Norgorber wants him dead at this point because Norgorber does not want him revealing his secrets. If he does, then he'll lose his cleric powers and the favor of his deity.
Jonis Flakfatter has even more to lose from failing Norgorber than the other Twilight Four as his power comes directly from Norgorber.
I think if he somehow survives the numerous attempts to kill him, Norgorber may step in himself and snuff him before he is able to reveal his secrets.
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I played him as being unwilling to part with any information until he could be absolutely assured of his safety--he thinks he only has value to the PCs for as long as they need to know what he knows, which means he's not going to give anything up while he still needs them for protection.
I left my players with the implication that, once they get him sent away to secure holdings, they'd have the opportunity to visit and interrogate him at that point.
Then, of course, the PCs and Wynsal got framed, and while they were dealing with that business, Olansa saw to Flakfatter.
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The Burning Chandelier Trap is just completely insane for a 15th level hazard, and impossible to deal with as a 13th level party. Not sure how it made it into the book as-is. I feel like it needs an errata.
It added nothing to the scenario. I eliminated it from the area. If the players found it given the high DC for finding it, I would have let them turn it against the enemy. But that DC to spot it is insane. If the party had a rogue or someone set up for dealing with it, then I might have run it. But my party does not, so it was cut out.
So uhhh,
Help...
My players encountered the Darkside mirror
Started with one PC getting swapped by it. Combat starts with the shatterling and I let the PC control their evil version(I tell them what's going on). So the replaced PC stays near the north exit of the building, opposite the darkside mirror and pretends to fight a shatterling as well. He calls for help and another PC comes running, said other PC fails their save, I let them in on what's going on...
and it snowballed
the only PC not corrupted by the mirror was already evil...
Where do I go from here? XD
I think you need a side-quest set in the mirror dimension with the PCs trying to find a way out.
The last PC could be integrated in some way (perhaps they can communicate to him via mirrors) or you could hand wave that he is also captured by the duplicates.
The Burning Chandelier Trap is just completely insane for a 15th level hazard, and impossible to deal with as a 13th level party. Not sure how it made it into the book as-is. I feel like it needs an errata.It added nothing to the scenario. I eliminated it from the area. If the players found it given the high DC for finding it, I would have let them turn it against the enemy. But that DC to spot it is insane. If the party had a rogue or someone set up for dealing with it, then I might have run it. But my party does not, so it was cut out.
I moved it to another room and the players let it be. I let it kill some of wave 1 to make things move faster.
I wanted to foreshadow Chapter 3: A Wonderful Time in Harrowland, so I ran the module The Harrowing to do so. The idea was that Vancaskerkin used an occult ritual or darkside mirror to create the Rabbit Prince out of the essence of one or more PCs. As a side-effect of this, the PCs stumble into the Harrowed Realm and have to escape. Vancaskerkin's alter-ego inside the Harrowed Realm is the Nightpeddler.
One of the players in my group requested to use one of the uncommon feats tied to Kassi Aziril from Lost Omens: Legends and I decided to oblige him by turning it into a mini-quest. This can play out right before or during the events of chapter 1 of this book, but I think it's even better to do it even earlier in the campaign, during book 2 or 3 to foreshadow the Blackfingers Temple and the conference.
Here you go: Kassi Aziril in Absalom