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With the APG looming and the community lacking a more in-depth Cleric guide, it's time I got this out there alongside the Guide to Deities and Domains.
The Gentleman's Guide to Faith: The Pathfinder 2E Cleric.
I'm still patching up the last few pieces- Archetypes will only cover relevant options (having 100 options, half of which are irrelevant is a waste of time and space), and we'll need some sample builds, but this is otherwise pretty much up to date.
Feedback and opinions are appreciated, as are things you think this should mention.
This also includes my discussion of the Warpriest, which goes over a) the pros and cons of WIS vs CHA, b) 1+shield vs 2 hands, c) whether or not Warpriests can function as a proper martial, or d) a proper control caster.
(Spoiler: a) depends on the situation and your party, b) 1 hand is better by a little bit most of the time, c) you can function as a secondary martial but not a tank, and d) you can do it, but only on the levels where your proficiency is on par, so build for something else as Plan A.)
Thank you for this
With the sample builds, is there anything people have in mind?
For Cloistered Clerics, I'll want to cover a full support healer, a Versatile-font utility caster, and a focus spell build.
For Warpriests, I was thinking a CHA Channel Smite build, a WIS Dangerous Sorcery/Cast Down build, and a focus spell Emblazon tank.
Any other suggestions are welcome.
I think I'll also include recommended spells with the builds rather than doing a whole section on just spells.
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I know that you haven't covered archetypes yet but I'd like to point out that a Cloistered Cleric with a Druid Archetype (For wild shape) is in a great many ways a Warpriest Light and I think should be considered in that light. It makes a very good compromise between a Cloistered Cleric and a Warpriest (arguably, its just straight out better than a Cloistered Cleric).
The Wild shape lets you do a great many of the things that you have identified as benefits of a Warpriest. As I read your "article" on the Warpriest I was constantly saying to myself "Yup, my Wild Shape handles that as well"
They make fine secondary combatants and they have considerable out of combat utility. They have huge lasting power and, of course, can still benefit from the various buff spells that a Warpriest can (with, admittedly, a somewhat narrower choice of Deities since they have to be at least somewhat nature friendly).
And they are NOT particularly MAD since Strength is almost irrelevant for them (my cleric is a Gnome with Str 8).
I haven't theorycrafted the build to higher levels but it is quite effective up to level 10 or so (played up to level 7, theory crafted past that). It is sufficiently flexible that when the geography is too small for the animal forms (probably its weakest point) you just fall back to playing as a cloistered cleric.
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Loving the guide, and the suggested build are great, maybe just one more, a Cloistered Cleric using Bow, some people seem to doubt Cloistered are better for that than Warpriest?
Also, are you thinking of adding the skill feats from Gods & Magic that need to worship a Deity?
It's not really specific to Clerics but they are not likely than most to take them, and they are not really discussed anywhere.
(They are not that powerful but I find them nice as one action filler, would love to have your opinion on them)
I like how you use charts in the guide.
I think the performance skill should be a C and not an F. I can see concepts clerics besides Shelyn and Hie Feng taking it. One in the Core rule book pg.236 says "scholarly work, such as using Religion in a monastery to study old texts—but giving sermons at a church would still fall under Performance instead of Religion." Some GM might rule that differently but still even outside of sermon performance has an important part in religious practices. I don't accept the argument your not a bard and also I find that argument deeply flawed. It a skill linked to an ability score that important to the cleric and while it may not be a priority for every build there are definitely concepts that can benefit from it.
I think the performance skill should be a C and not an F. I can see concepts clerics besides Shelyn and Hie Feng taking it. One in the Core rule book pg.236 says "scholarly work, such as using Religion in a monastery to study old texts—but giving sermons at a church would still fall under Performance instead of Religion." Some GM might rule that differently but still even outside of sermon performance has an important part in religious practices. I don't accept the argument your not a bard and also I find that argument deeply flawed. It a skill linked to an ability score that important to the cleric and while it may not be a priority for every build there are definitely concepts that can benefit from it.
Tha would be more a D than a C as per the rating used, but even hen, on a purely mechanical point of view, Performance brings little to a Cleric.
I think the performance skill should be a C and not an F. I can see concepts clerics besides Shelyn and Hie Feng taking it. One in the Core rule book pg.236 says "scholarly work, such as using Religion in a monastery to study old texts—but giving sermons at a church would still fall under Performance instead of Religion." Some GM might rule that differently but still even outside of sermon performance has an important part in religious practices. I don't accept the argument your not a bard and also I find that argument deeply flawed. It a skill linked to an ability score that important to the cleric and while it may not be a priority for every build there are definitely concepts that can benefit from it.Tha would be more a D than a C as per the rating used, but even hen, on a purely mechanical point of view, Performance brings little to a Cleric.
I would be fine with D as I actually debate it a bit with myself. I decide with C over D and I think it a C as it seems that the game designers had it in mind to tie to proselytizing downtime activity at least to an extent that I can see any cleric doing.
Would a discussion of good spells to take be an option? With the changes to spells in this edition I'm really struggling to determine which spells are worth taking and which aren't. Create Water is a first-level spell now, and while I don't see me picking it up every time, I can imagine it saving my ass one day.
Would a discussion of good spells to take be an option? With the changes to spells in this edition I'm really struggling to determine which spells are worth taking and which aren't. Create Water is a first-level spell now, and while I don't see me picking it up every time, I can imagine it saving my ass one day.
I'm including recommended spells in the Example Builds.
Note that providing a list of 'good' Cleric spells is tricky because of how situational a lot of the Divine list is.
Currently have Apsu Focus Spells CC, Szuriel WIS Warpriest, Sarenrae Healer CC, and Ragathiel Smitepriest example builds done.
Nice, specifically like the part with example builds.
Your harmpriest might be able to use bespell and divine weapon. One of the few builds that can.
1) action, action, harm, 2) Bespell weapon* (free), harm, divine weapon (free), attack, action.
* Only with no reaction between the last spell of the turn and the next turn.
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Would be interested to know what kind of build you would choose for a defensive support caster cleric. I am asking because most people would probably choose Warpriest for martial melee or caster melee and Cloistered for all types of full caster, most of which would be focused on their offensive / active abilities. What however if you want to play a mostly defensive and reactive character? I am asking because I myself struggled a lot if to go down the CC & Champion MC or Warpriest route for a defensive orientated support caster and the forum was mostly giving advice for offensive orientated WPs and "divine wizard" full caster CC.
Edith: Ended up with Sarenrae WP (Sun/Fire) looking into either Champion MC (for the reaction mostly and another point of AC) or Sorcerer MC for spells (true strike, invis, haste) once I reach level 9.
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CC with Champion is excellent for a reactive supporting character.
You get armour, their reactions (NG and CG are better than LG for this), Lay on Hands for healing, and Shield Ally to make your Shield Blocking way better.
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CC with Champion is excellent for a reactive supporting character.
You get armour, their reactions (NG and CG are better than LG for this), Lay on Hands for healing, and Shield Ally to make your Shield Blocking way better.
Yes from an action economy point of view, the primary casting classes generally make limited use of their reaction. There are not that many good spell reactions, shield block is so so and a one off.
Getting a useful reaction via the multiclass feat Champions Reaction is a major power upgrade. Being within 15ft is often tactically OK, and you don't need to be good with a weapon for it to be valuable.
How do we feel about taking Dangerous Sorcerery, and blasting with the Divine Spell list now that the APG is out?
Sudden Blight gives an ok AOE early on (by my math, its only 1.5 damage per spell level behind fireball, but is resisted less by most foes), and Agonizing Despair and Vampiric Maiden seem to be acceptable low-mid single target blasts.
Anyone have thoughts on Beastmaster as a Dedication to fill in for Cleric Feats?
The Support abilities of Animal Companions's seem hard to capitalize on, but an extra body that can screen, draw attacks, and flank as well as make attacks that aren't too terribly much worse than what you yourself can doesn't seem super terrible to me.
I'm getting around to covering the APG. I've added in the feats and ancestries- Archetypes will take some work yet.
Beastmaster seems quite good for Cloistered Clerics (warpriests are far too action hungry to want a minion). Providing flanking and soaking damage (you want a DEX focused Nimble companion for survivability) are great.
I think you missed Radiant Infusion at level 4 for the new feats?
Also I believe you are over rating Surge Focus & especially Shield of Faith. They seem mostly for Domain builds, but at level 8 & 10 these are more likely to want Advanced Domains. I think Shiele of Faith would be hard to fit before lvl 14 where its a choice between that & Deity's protection.
I'm getting around to covering the APG. I've added in the feats and ancestries- Archetypes will take some work yet.
Beastmaster seems quite good for Cloistered Clerics (warpriests are far too action hungry to want a minion). Providing flanking and soaking damage (you want a DEX focused Nimble companion for survivability) are great.
Good to hear my thoughts dont seem crazy.
I'm going to go through with my plan to rebuild my Cleric between books in EC as the parties animal person, and see how it goes.
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Sentinel looks like a pretty good archetype for Warpriests to nab. Basically makes dexterity an unneeded ability score for them at level 2, but especially at level 10 once they get Mighty Bulwark, which means they can focus on boosting up their Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma instead.
I think you missed Radiant Infusion at level 4 for the new feats?
Also I believe you are over rating Surge Focus & especially Shield of Faith. They seem mostly for Domain builds, but at level 8 & 10 these are more likely to want Advanced Domains. I think Shiele of Faith would be hard to fit before lvl 14 where its a choice between that & Deity's protection.
Shield of Faith is horrid, more so for being 10th level.
And I enjoy Focus Spells a lot. So many Dedications (or a follow up feat if the Cleric has one already) would be superior.I'd say it needs to last longer (though not necessarily a minute) or come with some temp h.p., perhaps a +1 to saves (if still 1 round).
I think emblazon armament could easily be a B or higher for warpriest clerics. It allows you to use your weapon or shield as a divine focus, otherwise you need a free hand to hold your divine focus. I think freeing up the warpriest clerics hands for a shield or a two handed weapon is easily a reason to bump this feat up from C
I think emblazon armament could easily be a B or higher for warpriest clerics. It allows you to use your weapon or shield as a divine focus, otherwise you need a free hand to hold your divine focus. I think freeing up the warpriest clerics hands for a shield or a two handed weapon is easily a reason to bump this feat up from C
That depends on how often one casts 3-action spells, since isn't that the only time they need their symbols?
Seems like AoE Heal and wall spells for the most part, and in the case of two-handed weapon wielders, they only lose one action regripping next round.And isn't there magic equipment that can substitute for this? Hmm.
I think emblazon armament could easily be a B or higher for warpriest clerics. It allows you to use your weapon or shield as a divine focus, otherwise you need a free hand to hold your divine focus. I think freeing up the warpriest clerics hands for a shield or a two handed weapon is easily a reason to bump this feat up from CThat depends on how often one casts 3-action spells, since isn't that the only time they need their symbols?
Seems like AoE Heal and wall spells for the most part, and in the case of two-handed weapon wielders, they only lose one action regripping next round.And isn't there magic equipment that can substitute for this? Hmm.
I was considering to emblazon my WP's shield to free a hand (for example to hold a weapon or being able to use battle medicine without need for an errata) and for a couple of spells, e.g. Dazzling Flash and 3-action heal, but eventually decided against it because without any undead present I actually never ever cast the 3-action heal. That the single target heal is the "default" heal instead of the AE version of PF1 at least somewhat devaluates not only Emblazon Armament but also other feats that let you shape or manipulate your AE heals and/or exclude targets.